The Cleveland Indians will yield to political correctness and ditch the team’s 70 year-old logo, Chief Wahoo. Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred pressured Indians chair Paul Dolan into making the change, which had been demanded by Native American activists for decades. A version of the red-skinned, hook-nosed caricature of a Native American first appeared on the Indians’ uniforms in 1948, when the team won its first American League pennant after many frustrating years. The logo caught on in part because the team’s fans had good associations with the image—the cognitive dissonance scale strikes again!—and then grinning indian became part of team tradition.The various groups that bullied other teams to change or eliminate names or logos with any hint of ethnicity on spurious grounds made banning Wahoo a priority, along with the Atlanta Braves “tomahawk chop” and especially the Washington Redskins nickname.
Apparently Manfred used the 2019 MLB All-Star Game as leverage, telling the club that either Chief Wahoo goes or the All-Star Game would end up somewhere else.
I have no affection for the logo, which is grotesque and anachronistic, but as with the Redskins, the protests were part of a power play by the Left and not the result of genuine, widespread offense affecting Native Americans. Nobody was made into a racist or caused to hate Native Americans because of Chief Wahoo, and sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon. There was no racist intent: people do not associate names and images that represent what they hate with teams they love. (The cognitive dissonance scale again. Is there anything it can’t explain?) As with the Redskins name, I feel as if the Cleveland Indians logo needed to stay as a matter of principle. Again, the attack on team names and symbols is about power, and bending others to their will. Polls and surveys showed that most Native Americans didn’t care. But this is just another brick in the wall, and the censors of art, history, tradition, thought and language will never stop.
If the Indians officials and fans think this will end with Chief Wahoo, they haven’t been paying attention. Now the political correctness mob will move on to its next prey—the team’s name, as well as the Braves, the Redskins, and the “the chop,” in baseball, the Warriors in the NBA, the Chiefs in the NFL, and the NHL Blackhawks. Then, who knows? Apache helicopters? It doesn’t matter. What matters is the power to control the culture.
Over at NBC’s baseball blog, Craig Calcaterra, a full-fledged social justice warrior who is increasingly unable to keep politics out of his baseball commentary (Craig was pining for baseball players to start protesting during the National Anthem) authored an incoherent article complaining that baseball killed Chief Wahoo for financial rather than “moral” reasons. There is no moral reason to remove a cartoon that didn’t hurt anyone, and that served to express any racist animus. There’s no financial reason either. This is just another example of a principle becoming too time- consuming and burdensome to defend against ideological fanatics with a long-term agenda.
After the team names and logos, I assume that the same activists will go after Apu, Dr. Hibbard, and all the other ethnic spoofs on “The Simpsons,” “The Family Guy” and even old Warner Brothers cartoons. Any films with unsympathetic portrayals of Native Americans will be declared unwatchable, as will any TV episodes or Westerns in which the Native Americans were portrayed by people like Elizabeth Warren. The ironic result of all of this winning by the hypersensitive Left is that the cultural footprint of the people who once dominated North America will shrink to the vanishing point.
Ethics Alarms 
I find Houston’s football team to have unfairly appropriated it’s name from my culture and should amend itself forthwith.
They should remove “Houston” from the name. Their record is simply horrid and embarrassing for a city like Houston.
jvb
Fun fact: The Chiefs don’t get their name from Native Americans at all (at least not directly), but from former Mayor H. Roe Bartle- philanthropist, Boy Scout leader, and one of the founders of the service fraternity Alpha PHi Omega.
This, of course, will not save the Chiefs from accusations of racism, as those accusations are already a demand for the primacy of the accuser’s feelings over any other concerns.
And the do have a Native American themed logo.
The truth is…. those who are all about this are racist themselves or were. So they project it onto everything.
Every activist I know on the left was once a hardcore right wing loud mouth. Every single one.
In discussions they really expose themselves and i guess it’s their way to try to make amends for their own hate from the past.
None have ever seen they still hate… just now they hate different people. It’s mindblowing to me they don’t see it… and… I have a hard time seeing my own blind spots too.
And… it’s going way too far. And the self righteousness and arrogance they carry is just as bad if not worse when they were rush Limbaugh junkies and “turn or burn” Christians.
What bugs me most is their crusade to name and shame and one even said on a PUBLIC FACEBBOK LIVE.. that you may think you’re not racist… but if you’re white you ARE subconsciously!!!!!!! Even if you have never been aware of it!!!!!
I could NOT believe my ears as 2 “educated” people talked about the subconscious racism of all their friends and family… so smug and ugh…
Amazing how some “educated” lose the ability to think for themselves after memorizing a bunch of crap and passing tests in college!!!! It’s like they lost the ability to think!
When will the cowboy, pioneer, mountaineer, meat packer, viking, 49er, aerospace engineer, sooner, hoosier, priest, and patriot “communities” begin speaking out about their being misappropriated and disparaged in logos? Oh, that’s right, never. Because they have a sense of humor. This is something the SJW left lacks or pretends to lack to advance its agenda.
I really don’t even know where to begin with those analogies. None of them are ethnicities. None of them were the victims of a cultural genocide.
But sure, let’s keep pretending that there’d be no difference between a football team called the New England Patriots and a football team called the New England Jews.
Vikings count. They are a culture group tied to a distinct population.
And Chief Wahoo disparages, adds offense or injury to past actual crimes how? Or the Redskins or Chiefs or Braves…
So your argument is there are special classes of people who are to be more protected than others. Already knew that.
You are creating a false equivalency here. This has nothing to do with “special classes of people who are to be more protected”, it has everything to do with “racial or cultural subsets of humanity that have been specifically targeted, victimized, and abused due to bigotry, white supremacy, nationalism, etc.”… Surely you are not attempting to indicate that you are oblivious to the decimation of and depredations against Native Americans at the hands of colonizing white people, and how that legacy of violence against them, as their homelands were taken from them, continues to affect their reservation-displaced peoples to this very day?
Likewise, these same white colonials and their descendants, engaged in the enslavement of blacks stolen from other countries, and then engaged in hundreds of years of generational abuse and torture where-in their cultures, names, languages, communities, religions, children, pride, freedoms, and legacies were stripped away from them leaving little to nothing of their actual cultural pasts, after which they were “freed” to live lives of indentured servitude and share-cropping for several generations, denied basic human rights, kept segregated, lynched, prevented from receiving proper education or from buying and owning decent property, or even voting for generations more, before finally being given a modicum of civil rights only after generations more of abuse which still continue to this day…
Native Americans, or any other subset of humanity that continues to be directly or systemically oppressed and abused, don’t owe their oppressors or the descendants of their oppressors, (or you, for that matter) an explanation of how these racists team logos “adds offense or injury to past actual crimes…” If you can’t make sense of that yourself, then no explanation is going to help you out of that well of willful ignorance. It is enough to know that they are offended by such things, and have been pushing to get those offensive things removed from societal acceptance for decades, ever since our slowly-progressing legal systems eventually allowed them the meager means by which to protest…
Maybe Elizabeth Warren can throw out the first pitch on opening day?
Yes any truth to the rumor Elizabeth Warren will be the new Indians Mascot? Also the Washington football team can shorten their nickname to “Reds”and just be descriptive of the folks in residence there. Truthfully played a lot of Golf in FL with a couple of Seminole Tribe members as my Oklahoma past gave us lots in common. They were part of that Tribe that took the NCAA to the woodshed over them trying to force the Florida Seminoles to change. If only some others would do the same.
Careful there, JRH. They are the Florida STATE Seminoles. No the Florida Gators. Just a word to the wise. For your own protection if you’re ever back in the Sunshine State. Football’s akin to a religion in the SEC (and ACC).
In the SAYouth, it ain’t “Where you from,” it’s “Who ya for?”
I wonder how long it’ll be until one of my favorite cartoon characters of yore is in the crosshairs?
A day without Foghorn Leghorn is like a day without…
Any a this gettin through to ya, son?
Yessuh!
Was Mel Blanc a voicing genius or what? He also started out another of my faves, Yosemite Sam.
Career Lefties aren’t trying nearly hard enough here’s FAR more possibilities to manufacture offense.
Let’s start with four ‘review processes’ for America’s Dairyland HS mascots.
The Altoona Railroaders, Ashland Oredockers, Clintonville Truckers and the Manitowoc Shipbuilders;
–Altoona Railroaders;
Railroads are made from EVIL steel, are powered by EVIL coal/gas/oil/electricity, and carry EVIL coal/gas/oil. They also symbolize sprawling western expansion, scarring Mother Gaia and displacing Native Americans.
*A plus? Post-modern Neo Lefties think Choo-Choos are the answer to, well, pretty much everything. (SEE: CA Bullshit Train)
*A plus plus? They transport critically important commodities like Brie, Chablis, Wheat Grass Tea, and cycling accoutremont.
–Ashland Oredockers;
Ships/Tankers (see: Manitowoc Shipbuilders) are made from EVIL steel/petroleum by-products, are powered by evil coal/gas/oilelectricity (sometimes REAL EVIL Nuclear) and carry EVIL coal/gas/oil. They also can be tied to the Slave Trade & U.S. Imperialism.
*A plus? If they’re involved in Eco-Tourism, they’re granted a pass.
*A plus plus? They transport critically important commodities like Brie, Chablis, Wheat Grass Tea, and cycling accoutremont.
–Clintonville Truckers;
Trucks are made with EVIL steel/petroleum by-products, are powered by EVIL gas/diesel/oil/electricity, and carry EVIL coal/gas/oil. They’re also used in the transportation of illegal aliens, I mean, undocumented asylum seekers.
*A plus Funny mudflap designs which may be blurred as they pass your Eco-Box.
*A plus plus? They transport critically important commodities like Brie, chablis, Wheat Grass Tea, and cycling accoutremont.
–Manitowoc Shipbuilders;
Ships/Tankers (see: Ashland Oredockers) are made from EVIL steel/petroleum by-products, are powered by EVIL coal/gas/electricity/(sometimes REAL EVIL nuclear) and carry EVIL coal/gas/oil, can be tied to the Slave Trade & U.S. Imperialism, and are loaded at (see: Ashland Oredockers)
*A plus? They employ Union workers that earn a living wage and vote democrat.
*A plus plus? They transport critically important commodities like Brie, chablis, Wheat Grass Tea, and cylcing accoutremont.
The woke must see that these names are very EVIL and destructive to the ENVIRONMENT because they contribute to the GLOBAL WARMING that’s here and worse than the models predicted!
I am pro-environment, anti-Global Warming, and woke, ergo, these sobriquets offend me. If I’m offended, everyone else that’s as nice as I think I am must be offended as well. So they must be removed and replaced with something that won’t offend tender sensibilities
If not, I and other perpetually touchy and similarly Birkenstock shod and Hempen Homespun clad sorts will occupy the WI State Capitol, trash it, sing off key in the “Key Of Me,” and otherwise act like spoiled children.
Helpful alternatives include, but are not limited to:
The Altoona “Save-The-Tunas.’
The Ashland “No-More-Ores.”
The Clintonville “Hillaries.”
The Manitowoc “Ewoks.”
Wait a minute, the term “MANitowoc” should offend both Native American AND Feminists.
Oy, back to Committee.
Now it would be super-ethical if – to protest the cultural annihilation and censorship of history that is taking place with the banning of symbols and terms that remind of earlier continental nations’ existence – all gambling establishments on “reservations” were successfully boycotted and otherwise shamed and sued into bankruptcy and oblivion. For now, I will be content with boycotting the State of the Union theat- er, address – especially content, since this year I am boycotting racist leftist boycotters of that event. I will look up some ancient episode of “Ancient Aliens” to watch, instead…
Nothing changes anyone’s mind quicker than a threat to his bottom line. The culture warriors can attack the teams and colleges and event organizers all they want, and they won’t get very far. The SCOTUS has ruled several times to that effect. However, attack them financially, or attack the businesses that sponsor these games, events, etc., and that’s a whole different issue.
Guinness is in the business of selling beer, and for a long time sponsored NY’s St. Patrick’s day parade as a side thing. That parade didn’t want gay groups, and SCOTUS rules they didn’t have to accept them. The gays start pouring Guinness down the drain and threatening to organize a boycott, Guinness threatens to pull the sponsorship because they don’t want the controversy, and lo and behold, welcome gay Irish.
You mark my words, although Winchester, VA has said they are standing firm on Confederate memorials, and NY is standing firm on Columbus and all things associated with him, if the left starts to #boycottshenendoah or the Indians start organizing boycotts of the pasta manufacturers and the wine companies that sponsor all these Columbus/Italian events and a travel boycott of NY, Winchester will purge its tourist area, Columbus Day will vanish, and Columbus Circle will become Russell Means Roundabout overnight.
Funny you should mention Apu from the Simpsons; this recently came out – https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_with_Apu
Your could live in Toronto, as I do:
– MLB in court to fight Human Rights Tribunal from hearing complaint against Cleveland logo (Dec., 2017):
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/mlb-in-court-to-block-human-rights-tribunal-from-hearing-discrimination-complaint-over-cleveland-indians-name-mascot
– Local universities drop title “Master” for college heads (Dec., 2017)
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/york-university-scraps-college-master-academic-title-to-cut-association-to-discrimination-and-racism
– Toronto School Board goes after “Chief” title (Oct., 2017)
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-toronto-school-board-declares-war-on-chief-and-all-sense
I love the first line of the school board article “If there were any doubt, there is no more: Canada is the stupidest country ever.” Well, maybe we are a close second?
Not everyone here in Canada supports the language overhaul.Certainly not the opinion writer on the school board issues, Christie Blatchford nor the academic and free speech advocate U of Toronto’s Dr. Jordan Peterson. He caused a firestorm when he said he would refuse to address anyone with anything but “traditional” pronouns as forcing him to adopt new ones was contrary to free speech. His argument is, at least in part, why should someone else’s feelings/rights trump his? The left wants to paint him as an alt-right nutter. He just happens to be intelligent and articulate with firmly held beliefs and the more mud they sling the more bounces back. His recent interview in Britain was masterful. The “ha, gotcha” heard ’round the world:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ha-gotcha-free-speech-hero-corners-left-wing-reporter-with-her-own-logic
Thanks for the last link right above. That guy’s great. eh? Glad he’s oot and aboot.
The very real problem is that anyone who stands against this is declared a racist.
What is the proof of racism? Why, it’s opposing removing a statue of Robert E. Lee, or daring to suggest that maybe Chief Wahoo shouldn’t be purged from the Cleveland Indians. Or it’s not going along when the Left wants us to ignore the crimes committed by those who have returned after being deported.
The thing is, the same people waging this jihad against Chief Wahoo then wonder why Donald Trump was elected president.
I have no affection for the logo, which is grotesque and anachronistic, but as with the Redskins, the protests were part of a power play by the Left and not the result of genuine, widespread offense affecting Native Americans. Nobody was made into a racist or caused to hate Native Americans because of Chief Wahoo, and sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon. There was no racist intent: people do not associate names and images that represent what they hate with teams they love. (The cognitive dissonance scale again. Is there anything it can’t explain?) As with the Redskins name, I feel as if the Cleveland Indians logo needed to stay as a matter of principle. Again, the attack on team names and symbols is about power, and bending others to their will.
So…let’s keep grotesque and anachronistic mascots around to own the libs?
Your argument about “hate” is poorly thought out. Not all racism is about “hate.” A lot of it is about stereotypes and mockery. One need not “hate” a race to believe in certain cartoonish stereotypes about them, and the image is undeniably a cartoonish stereotype.
”Not all racism is about ‘hate.’ A lot of it is about stereotypes and mockery.”
The mascot is part of a team’s brand, and no one wants to belittle their brand.
But there are exceptions to every rule, and if it’s stereotypes and mockery you want, allow me to submit the UNC intramural BB team dubbed the “Fighting Whites.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites
Funniest thing, their mascot literally oozes stereotyping and mockery, but resulted in no horrified Lefty handwringing or brow furrowing.
Quite the opposite in fact; it created a big Lefty YuckFest because it offends the “right” people.
Google is a truly wonderful invention, Paul. Through it I was able to find out that the “Fightin’ Whities” were invented as a direct response to teams like the Redskins, and the purpose was to highlight the stereotypical nature of such teams by showing how ridiculous it would be if this happened commonly to white people. This is called good satire.
So you tried to argue that there’s nothing wrong with team names like the Redskins by…bringing up a team whose whole purpose was to show what’s wrong with names like the Redskins.
Great work.
How about the XFL with names like the NY/NJ Hitmen, the Chicago Enforcers, and the Las Vegas Outlaws? Perfectly OK, right? But they had to change the name the Birmingham Blast, because somehow that was racist.
How about the XFL with names like the NY/NJ Hitmen, the Chicago Enforcers, and the Las Vegas Outlaws? Perfectly OK, right?
I don’t know. They don’t bring up any racial connotations in my mind; do they have racial connotations to you?
I can see the argument that these names glorify violence and should be changed for that reason, but that’s a separate argument.
But they had to change the name the Birmingham Blast, because somehow that was racist.
I had to look that one up. Here’s what I found:
Allegedly, the league had originally planned to name the team the Blast; the XFL had named all of its teams with references to insanity and criminal activity, and the name “Birmingham Blast” likewise invoked images of the 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church and of Eric Rudolph’s 1998 bombing of a local abortion clinic, two tragic events in Birmingham history. As the league soon realized that such a name would have been in extremely poor taste, at the last minute the league changed it to “Thunderbolts,” or “Bolts” for short. The team’s logo is said to be the same one originally designed for the Blast. The Thunderbolts were unusual in that their nickname was benign.
Yikes. It sounds like the name was changed because of more than just accusations of racism.
Gee, “Hitmen” and “Enforcers” in two of the biggest areas for the mob couldn’t have negative connotations for Italians, now could they?
I think the change for the Blast was b.s., and wouldn’t have been touched but for the fact that one of the bombings involved a black church.
Names that glorify violence shouldn’t be used in a contact sport? Come on here.
Gee, “Hitmen” and “Enforcers” in two of the biggest areas for the mob couldn’t have negative connotations for Italians, now could they?
Sure they could. That didn’t jump out at me, but now that you mention it, I see it. Perhaps those names should be changed to.
What’s the mascot for those teams look like? If it’s as egregious a stereotype as Chief Wahoo, it should definitely be changed.
I think the change for the Blast was b.s., and wouldn’t have been touched but for the fact that one of the bombings involved a black church.
Fair enough.
Names that glorify violence shouldn’t be used in a contact sport? Come on here.
I didn’t say that, I said I can see the argument.
No, it’s stupid satire, and self-rebutting. Teams nicknames are compliments, not insults. Fact. This has been the flaw in the whole premis behind the attacks on ethnic names. Do the Irish in Boston see “Celtics” as a racist insult? Of course not. But Indians is somehow denigration when attached to a sports team. Why? Because the activists want it to be, that’s why.
What is the insult in “Fighting Whities?” The mascot is a well-dressed, smiling man.
Have you never heard of benevolent racism? What if a team of white Mathletes decided to name themselves “the Asians?” Why, it’s a compliment! But it’s still a stereotype, and it still reduces a racial or ethnic group to a few generic traits. That’s wrong, and racist, even if the intent is to compliment.
“Celtic” is a bad comparison; no one considers themselves “celtic” today, and that isn’t a result of genocide against the Celts.
”What is the insult in ‘Fighting Whities?’ ”
You probably see “Piss Christ” as edgy, creative, artistic genius, am I right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
You play dumb very well, Chris. Leads one to opine you’re not playing.
And you are a master of awful comparisons. My god.
In Boston, Celtic means Irish.The logo is a leprechaun.
Yep, and though it comes in fits and starts, there are always periodic resurgences of “Celtic pride” and people claiming some affinity with the Celtic peoples… (often with vast ignorance on the history).
”Through it I was able to find out that the “Fightin’ Whities” were invented as a direct response to teams like the Redskins”
Direct response, huh?
According to the perps, the bombing of the Army Mathmatics Research Center (Sterling Hall) was a direct response to the bombing in SE Asia and to, you know, like, show what was wrong with the Viet Nam War.
Late researcher Robert Fassnacht unavailable for comment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Hall_bombing
I think I know what point you’re attempting to make with that absurd comparison, Paul, but I’d really like to see you type it out, so you can see how ridiculous your point is.
I’m not a lefty, but I bought one of those shirts. Laughed by butt off.
”I bought one of those shirts”
You weren’t alone.
https://www.denverpost.com/2009/10/24/short-lived-fighting-whites-team-products-hot/
And Shelf Life Clothing has a “Caucasians” line which Chris will be quick to inform you is not intended to belittle or mock EVIL Whities.
http://www.shelflifeclothing.com/caucasians.html
Not to be outdone, Cafe Press has a “Fuckin’ Whities” line.
https://www.cafepress.com/mf/8563916/fuckinwhitiesjpg_sweatshirt?productId=30399363
Sooo… caricatures should be illegal? How about parody? How about satire? How about good old fashioned uncomfortable truths about certain groups?
Sooo… caricatures should be illegal?
Yes, that’s definitely what I said. Good job.
Who decides the difference between harmless caricature and racism?
Certainly not the law, and bringing up government censorship was a deflection on your part. Reasonable people having a debate get to decide. Right now, your side of the debate is losing.
In my opinion it is very difficult to do a “harmless caricatures” of an entire racial or ethnic group, especially one that has suffered as much as Native Americans have in this country. Most caricatures of such groups strike me as prima facie racist.
That doesn’t mean one can’t do clever satire about race, but it’s sometimes hard to do, because it needs to be clear that the “butt of the joke” isn’t the race or ethnic group in question. I look at Chief Wahoo and I see the butt of a joke.
Maybe for purposes only of a discussion reasonable people get to decide. For purposes of what constitutes actionable racism there does need to be an objective standard. Not sure “my side” of whatever debate is losing, but if any side is losing it’s not through reasoned discussion, it’s through bullying and attacks. Ethics foul for saying “never argue with success.”
I’d suggest you watch a few old Tex Avery cartoons if you want to see some harmless caricatures. In fact my favorite is “Magical Maestro” in which a slighted magician exacts revenge on a snooty opera singer by transforming him onstage into several stereotypes, all of which have a clear basis in reality, including a Chinese coolie, a cowboy, a square dance caller, a Carmen Miranda-esque carnival singer, a black singer singing in the manner of the Ink Spots, and a Hawaiian chant singer. No harm done and you laugh yourself silly in the process.
BTW, are the old ethnic sidekicks from the Golden Age of radio also the butt of a joke? “Tonto not know, Kemo Sabe.”
That old cartoons, radio and television shows were hotbeds of racism isn’t even a question. Of course they were racist, and were products of a racist time.
I’m not sure what you mean by “actionable racism.” Legally actionable? There would have to be actual harassment. The government should not take any action against sports teams for having racist logos. That doesn’t make those logos not racist.
Of course native Americans don’t generally take offense at team names. They’re too ignorant to know better. Fortunately, they have white progressives to get upset on their behalf.
Crisis averted.
Worth noting that the methodology of the poll Jack’s linked article talks about has been heavily criticized. Apparently the poll relied on “self-identified” Native Americans, meaning Elizabeth Warren could have been a participant.
https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/news/native-news/washington-post-finds-500-people-who-dont-find-r-word-offensive-half-say-they-are-enrolled-tribal-members/
Translation: The SWJ’s didn’t like the facts, so they attacked the messenger. If there was a poll or survey that showed what the anti-Redskins advocates wanted it to show, don’t you think we would have seen it? There was no rebuttal, just denial. How in the world would you do a poll and NOT use “self-identified” as the basis? Are there secret Indians out there?
Terrible.
Attacking methodology is not the same as attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message–that’s what you’re doing by refusing to even look at the criticism of the methodology.
And how on earth did you miss the point of the Elizabeth Warren crack? “Self-identified” means people who claimed they were Native American. The poll did not get any verification on that–they didn’t even ask for a tribal affiliation. That makes the poll useless as a reflection of Native American opinion generally.
Do you have a rebuttal to this critique of the methodology, or just denial?
I repeat: how else would you do it? You really think there are a lot of phony Native Americans out there? If they identify as Native Americans, presumably they would have the same sensibilities. It’s a concocted criticism. The results of the poll were so lopsided that the critique was irrelevant. “That makes the poll useless as a reflection of Native American opinion generally.” is literally untrue. It is overwhelmingly likely to reflect the attitudes of the group. The polls was commissioned by those who assumed the result would be the opposite!
Elizabeth. Warren.
Yes, there are a lot of phony Native Americans out there. Most white people I know claim to have some Native American ancestry with as little documentation of it as Warren had.
”Most white people I know claim to have some Native American ancestry with as little documentation of it as Warren had.”
Did most of those White people you know rip off AA and fake that ethnicity to further their career prospects?
If so, are most of those White people you know being hounded by authentic Native Americans (like Cherokee genealogist Twila Barnes) and admonished to put up or shut up? Oddly enough, Warren has refused to meet with them.
I bet my bottom wampum that Warren’s completed DNA testing and chooses not to reveal the results.
I was going to send you one of these depicting one of your heroes, but they’re out of stock; rats!
http://racheldolezal.com/index.php/product/2018-calendar/
By this logic, how could you ever do a poll involving self-identified transgenders? Gender fluid people?
Why are the expectations, that you have to “prove” your tribal affiliation (heaven forbid we accept someone’s self-identified identity at face value) HIGHER, for a POLL, than they are for someone to share a bathroom and other intimate space with others?
And as an aside, how is asking for tribal affiliation any real layer of scrutiny? Thats like, instead of asking me to show my license, just asking me to describe what shape it is.
A poll that was sent out anonymously and simply asked people if they considered themselves transgender wouldn’t be very useful either.
The social consequences of walking into a bathroom for people that don’t share your gender identity are typically greater than the social consequences of lying on a poll. The latter, in fact, has no social consequences at all.
I know a lot of Native Americans (who btw call themselves Indians or Skins) from reservations as my wife grew up on one and we have family living on one. Almost everyone we know from there has sportswear from professional sports teams with Indian/Native logos and names. So yeah…this isn’t about the actual people at all & it almost always never is.
Wonder why the Florida State Seminoles get away with Chief Osceola (an EVIL White man with face paint) riding a horse (the real chief didn’t) and a flaming spear are spared more widespread scrutiny?
Wonder no more.
”For the wealthy and powerful Florida Seminole tribal leaders, the cultural elevation of the football program is a part of their extremely lucrative gaming operation.” (bolds mine)
Florida Seminole Tribe of Florida Chairman James Billie: “Anybody come here into Florida trying to tell us to change the name, they better go someplace else, because we’re not changing the name.”
https://www.thenation.com/article/florida-state-seminoles-champions-racist-mascots/
I had my students write about that exact issue a few years back, and they compared it to the Redskins issue.
Ultimately I think naming a sports team after a race, ethnicity or tribe is wrong no matter what. Remember, “It doesn’t bother me!” is a rationalization; even if the poll Jack cites were entirely accurate, that wouldn’t make the name ethical.
I’m half Spartan. My Sparta-born grandmother was thrilled (if puzzled) that Michigan State’s football team honored her birthplace by calling themselves “The Spartans.” Was this wrong?
No. Spartan is not even an ethnicity.
You said: “Ultimately I think naming a sports team after a race, ethnicity or tribe is wrong no matter what.”
Spartans were certainly a tribe, if not an ethnicity.
They were a distinct culture group with an isolated population. They count.
The distinction here between groups like “Vikings” and “Spartans” and the iconic qualities associated with those distinct population / culture groups which drive what a sports team seeks to emulate is that those groups no longer exist as that distinct culture/population group with those clear defining cultural characteristics.
Teams named after Native American tribes because many of those tribes exhibited combative and competitive characteristics are touchy, because those groups are still around as reasonably distinct entities with direct ties (a half dozen generations) to the time when they exhibited the characteristics.
Again, why anyone thinks it’s insulting to name your team after someone you are honoring for certain characteristics is beyond me, but maybe the hordes of wholly unaffiliated guilty whites who care most about this can explain it.
The distinction here between groups like “Vikings” and “Spartans” and the iconic qualities associated with those distinct population / culture groups which drive what a sports team seeks to emulate is that those groups no longer exist as that distinct culture/population group with those clear defining cultural characteristics.
Teams named after Native American tribes because many of those tribes exhibited combative and competitive characteristics are touchy, because those groups are still around as reasonably distinct entities with direct ties (a half dozen generations) to the time when they exhibited the characteristics.
Well said.
anyone thinks it’s insulting to name your team after someone you are honoring for certain characteristics is beyond me, but maybe the hordes of wholly unaffiliated guilty whites who care most about this can explain it.
To return to my earlier analogy, would it seem right to you for a group of white Mathletes to name their team “The Asians” to honor that culture for the (presumed) characteristic of being good with math? Is there anything wrong with this analogy?
It is stereotypical that Asians are good at math.
It is not stereotypical that Native Americans were good warriors.
They WERE good warriors.
….
(given the odds they were up against)
Many blacks have no problem using the N word. Is that just a rationalization, and their use equally unethical? Ethical? Ethical in context (when blacks use it towards each other)?
Does intent matter? Does inference?
I lean toward always unethical, but I just defended women calling each other “bitch” in a friendly tone, so I’m going to have to reassess that. I do think any team that called itself “The Niggers” would obviously be unethical.
And of course, it is only a rationalization if the conduct being rationalized is unethical. That has yet to be proven.
Amid the legal maneuvering and name-change push, some Indians interviewed by The Post voiced resentment toward the activists. A small percentage of their community had, in their minds, spoken for the majority.
“It’s 100 people okay with the situation, and one person has a problem with it, and all of a sudden everyone has to conform,” said New York resident Judy Ann Joyner, 64, a retired nurse whose grandmother was part-Shawnee and part-Wyandot.
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“I’m proud of being Native American and of the Redskins,” said Barbara Bruce, a Chippewa teacher who has lived on a North Dakota reservation most of her life. “I’m not ashamed of that at all. I like that name.”
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“I really don’t mind it. I like it. . . . We call other natives ‘skins,’ too,” said Gabriel Nez, a 29-year-old Navajo who left his reservation last year to study criminal justice at a college in New Mexico.”
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“I’d destroy them,” the 19-year-old said of opponents to the name. “Every argument they use is emotionally charged, and emotion doesn’t win a debate.”
Owens, a student at Oklahoma State University, is majoring in philosophy and biology with a minor in Greek. He is also an enrolled Cherokee and said neither he nor his friends see the name as derogatory.
For him, the matter also comes down to intent: “To see something as offensive when somebody means nothing offensive about it is totally insane…I take pride in it. Most people I see griping about it are not Native Americans.”
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“If you want to look at it and find a reason for it to be offensive, then you can,” said Scott, who is an enrolled member of the Cherokee and Delaware tribes. “I’ve talked about this with family and friends, and it doesn’t bother me none. I am proud that someone is recognizing Native Americans.”
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Christopher Curro said he takes pride in the name and would only be offended if it were changed.
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Bonnie LaChappa said she had just bought a Redskins jersey for her husband.
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“I think the hoo-ha about it is crazy,” Manfred said of the name controversy. “To me, it’s kind of like an honor. I think we should be proud to have a team named after us.”
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“Torrey Brown said she appreciates that American Indians have at least some mainstream representation.”
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“The people who are against this have come from a generation that is against everything. ”
Michelle Anderson, 50, Virginia Beach, Blackfoot
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Just a sampling of comments from Native Americans regarding the pressure for the Redskins to change their name.
Lost in the talk of methodology, is that there are actual people behind these polls, and many of them not only do not mind, but take pride in the name. Take pride in the fact that their heritage is in the public eye. People who know that if these names were to ever change, the people behind the movement would instantly stop caring about the remaining 99% of the problems that Native Americans deal with.
Now, Im biased…I am a die hard Redskins fan (in spite of my better judgement), so I dont want to see the name changed, for selfish reasons. AND, I agree with what Chris said upthread…any attempt to compare Redskins to Patriots, or a host of other people-based nicknames is ludicrous. Patriots, Vikings, 49ers, and the lot simply do not have breath of historical marginalization that Native Americans do.
But, I am also greatly bothered by the idea of people being offended on the behalf of others, most of whom ARENT. Or those who are legitimately offended, diminishing those who could be, and aren’t, because of methodology. You dont like the methodology? Run your own legit poll.
From a WaPo article on the proposed Redskins name change:
But Harjo questioned the validity of the poll results and said they do not reflect what she has seen during her decades of involvement with the issue.
“I don’t accept self-identification. People say they’re native, and they are not native, for all sorts of reasons,” she said.
Who the hell is this person to tell other Native American’s that she doesn’t believe them? Is that no…you can identify as whatever you want, as long as you legitimately believe it, AND you’re on the same side of the street as me? But the second your opinion differs, your identifying is no longer valid? Anyone wanna bet that if the poll turned out in her favor, she’d have no problem with the self-identificaion?
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/redskins-poll/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?utm_term=.13b81e6dd02b
Well done. The commentariat has missed you.
Second. Missed a great deal.
Thanks Tex and Jack. Wet through a bad breakup, and needed to take a break from the internet for awhile, and after that, needed some time just reading and reflecting without commenting.
Happy to be back. 🙂
Sorry to hear that. I’ve been there. You’re a catch and you’ll bounce back. Happy to see you’re back.
AND, I agree with what Chris said upthread…any attempt to compare Redskins to Patriots, or a host of other people-based nicknames is ludicrous. Patriots, Vikings, 49ers, and the lot simply do not have breath of historical marginalization that Native Americans do.
Thanks.
I’m not “offended” by team names like the Redskins, I just think they’re unethical.
I do agree that I would like to see a poll done with better methodology. Until then, I find the most commonly referenced one to be no better than anecdotal evidence.
“Is that no” = “Is that how it is now”
Not fully baked idea pulled out of the oven early…
In recent history some WI perpetually-offended vegan Lefties wanted to change the name of the 13 Time World Champion Green Bay Packers to something like the Six-Packers.
Why? So as to not appear supportive of the meat-packing industry.
Guess how that played out?
”Guess how that played out?”
The vegans got ignored just like they get throughout the rest of civilized society.
”The vegans got ignored just like they get throughout the rest of civilized society.”
The 77 Square Miles Surrounded By A Sea Of Reality (the Austin of the Midwest) paid heed. Everyone else? Not so much.
A different subset of brow furrowing handwringers went after the Hurley (my home away from home!) and Butternut (WI) Midgets.
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/opinion/39582107.html/
Shockingly, they weren’t/aren’t trying to offend anyone. The Midgets ”are named after Charles ‘Midget’ Fischer, who hailed from Butternut and was once the middle- and light-heavyweight wrestling champion of the world. Turns out he was a small guy who accomplished enormous things.”
TRIGGER WARNING: Shield Yer Eyes!
You can strike The Warriors off the hit list. “Warrior” can be easily argued to refer to any brave (no tribal affiliation intended) or experienced combatant.
The latest logo for the Golden State Warriors, an outline of the eastern span of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge (attesting to the team’s historical link between the two cities … and designed specifically to retain the team’s fan base on both sides of the Bay), it seems to be about the least potentially offensive of any logo, as bland as oatmeal and PC to the max. In spite of its apparent insipidity, however, this is what the strange choice of depicting the East Span of the Bay Bridge actually commemorates (starting at 2:47):
http://sfist.com/2014/10/15/loma_prieta_25_years_later_harrowin.php