How dare he?
I have avoided weighing into the controversy over Tim Tebow, the Denver Bronco quarterback whose very public Christianity, combined with his penchant for leading miracle comeback victories for his team, has made him the most polarizing figure in sports today, and one of the most polarizing people in the culture as a whole. I have avoided commenting because I think the ethics of the controversy are obvious. Tebow is a decent, law-abiding, well-bred young man in a sector of our culture that produces profane, semi-literate, violent, or arrogant jerks, fools, cheats and felons, not to mention arrested adolescents, by the hundreds, who are cheered, worshipped and enriched based solely on their talent to excel in stadiums and arenas. Anyone who chooses Tim Tebow, out of all these travesties of sports celebrity, to deride solely because he is vocal about his religious beliefs isn’t worth arguing about, because the verdict’s in: that critic’s priorities are backwards, inside out and warped. Tebow, unlike the NFL’s assorted felons, the NBA’s many dead-beat dads, and baseball’s steroid cheats, is a worthy role model for kids. He is humble, respectful, does his job and plays by the rules. What’s not to like?
Well, we know the answer to that question. He prays on the field, thanks God after every touchdown pass, and is prone to saying things like, “First and foremost I gotta thank my lord and savior Jesus Christ” to reporters. Is it annoying? Oh, sure it is. This stuff is annoying from any athlete. To begin with, it is silly—the very idea that a Supreme Being gives a hoot which wins a football game is infantile—and it comes off as a commercial, like an athlete who makes sure that he says, “Well, first and foremost I have to thank the General Mills people, because Wheaties, “The Breakfast of Champions,” has made me who I am today!” in every interview. But Tebow’s statements aren’t commercials, though, and anyone inclined to be fair knows it. This is a man with a deep religious faith who really believes that God guides his every move, and that it is right and responsible to thank Him when the quarterback is being celebrated for athletic exploits that in Tebow’s belief system are the product of his relationship with his deity. The sentiment is sincere and the motivation is virtuous. For Tebow’s displays of faith to incur hatred is an indictment of the haters. If he annoys you, don’t listen to him. If you do, the annoyance is your fault, not Tebow’s.
Yet Tebow hatred is epidemic. “I hate Tim Tebow” garners 22 million results on Google; there is an “I Hate Tebow” facebook page and website, and respectable sportswriters have written at length about their hatred. Here’s one:
“…So when he gets on national television and thanks his lord and savior Jesus Christ…I hate him. He’s giving a big, fat middle finger to everyone who isn’t religious; To the people who have been kicked out of their church for being gay; To the kids who have been evicted by their families in the name of Christ; And to the kids who’ve killed themselves because they couldn’t reconcile their feelings with the teachings of close-minded religious zealots.”
There is no defense for this. Someone expressing his support, allegiance or faith is not evoking every misdeed or harm committed in the name of what he is praising, except in the minds of angry, bitter, close-minded people who don’t believe in pluralism, diversity or respecting the opinions of others, no matter what they say in other contexts. These are the people whose idea of “offensive” is to hear any opinion they disagree with, the people whose favored method of winning debates is to muzzle their adversaries with rules, limitations, taboos and threats. If someone can’t listen to Tim Tebow, who as far as we know has never intentionally hurt another human being in his life, without associating him with the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials and the murder of Matthew Shepard, that individual is so full of hatred that it has cooked his brain. By all means, criticize Tebow for insisting on turning public sporting events into personal prayer sessions; the criticism is valid. Hate isn’t, and hateful words aren’t. As I said at the outset, this should be obvious.
When fear is added to hate we get bigotry, and Tebow is inspiring fear for the most absurd of reasons: his current success. Some find his success ominous and threatening because, they say, it will draw people to his religion. To this the proper answer is “What’s it to you?” The truth of religion can be disputed, but the fact that faith has helped human beings overcome obstacles, conquer personal problems, develop confidence and lead better lives cannot. In sports lore, stories of athletes who have sudden success because of a talisman, a supernatural ally, a spell or a lucky charm are common to the point of cliché. Typically the magic aid is unavailable when the climactic game arrives, and the hero, after professing despair that he can’t possibly win without his Magic Potato, goes out and performs brilliantly anyway. “See?,’ someone always tells him. “It was never the Magic Potato! It was you all along!”
Still, the athlete might never have realized his potential without his belief in the Magic Potato, and this is how religion works for millions of Americans. Alcoholics Anonymous is a prominent example. If the Broncos’ miracle finishes cause some individuals looking for inspiration and guidance to embrace Tebow’s faith, great. I hope it works out for them. Yet others see this as a threat, another reason to hate Tim Tebow and regard him as a blight on society.
Rabbi Joshua Hammerman expressed this perspective in a column for The Jewish Week. He wrote:
“I want to root for the guy, but I’m afraid of what will happen if the hulky Denver Bronco quarterback continues to pull off what is fast becoming the Greatest Gridiron Story Ever Told. Since taking over as starting quarterback earlier this season, the Heisman winning national champion from the University of Florida has been winning consistently and dramatically, in the final minutes of the game or overtime, relying on powerful legs rather than his infamously erratic arm and confounding skeptical fans along with the Bronco management, who, it is said, were hoping he would fail.
“A poster boy of the Christian right, Tebow steadfastly thanks Jesus after every game and, while in college, often inscribed biblical messages on his eye paint. Homeschooled in Florida, this child of missionaries turned down his selection as a Playboy All American because it was, well, Playboy. His trademark prayerful touchdown celebration (imagine Rodin’s “Thinker” on bended knee, or your grandfather davening Tachanun with a football) has become a verb. Google “tebowing” and you’ll find 84 million hits, including lots of YouTube parodies. Tebow’s mother, a Baptist missionary, became comatose during her pregnancy and was saved by drugs that nearly killed the fetus. Doctors anticipated a stillbirth and recommended termination to protect her life, but Tim’s mother refused to abort. Trumpeting that decision, mother and son appeared in commercials for “Focus on the Family” during this past season’s Super Bowl….
“If Tebow wins the Super Bowl, against all odds, it will buoy his faithful, and emboldened faithful can do insane things, like burning mosques, bashing gays and indiscriminately banishing immigrants. While America has become more inclusive since Jerry Falwell’s first political forays, a Tebow triumph could set those efforts back considerably.”
The Rabbi embellished his reasoning on his blog, writing…
“My Tebow piece is generating the expected outrage from the evangelical right (cant’ wait for Jews to begin chiming in!). I was careful in my comments not to accuse Tebow himself of potentially destructive acts but to suggest that a perceived divine mandate for Tebow could inspire mischief among the zealous evangelical right. Unfortunately, mosque burnings have already occurred in this country (and a notable Quran burning too). All it takes is one crazy person. As for Tebow, he has done extraordinary things. His love for people is unbounded. His entire life’s work is also predicated on saving my soul for Jesus. He’s not alone in this. Tebow has been affiliated with the Southern Baptists, who spend millions to convert Jews, often deceptively. I personally don’t consider that exemplary behavior. Is it better than raping little boys? Absolutely. But is it admirable? I have issues with anyone determined to save my soul, be that person Christian or Jewish. And when they are going after the souls of our kids on college campuses, with a multimillion dollar budget that puts the Jewish community’s education budgets to shame, I do think it is cause for concern…Some Jews prefer to turn a blind eye to these practices, as evangelicals are very supportive of Israel (granted, with end-time conversions in mind). My ideal person of faith is a pluralist, one who accepts the legitimacy of my faith. Tebow does not. I do not find that admirable. ”
The attacks on the rabbi’s piece in the press and blogosphere were furious enough to persuade both Rabbi Hammerman and Jewish Week to take down his screed, but it will stand as the low point in Tebow hatred, hopefully forever. Hammerman must be held to a higher standard than the typical sportswriter; as a rabbi, he is a leader in the Jewish community and presumed to be intelligent and wise: he has influence, and he has an ethical duty to be responsible in exercising it. His argument, however, was hysterical, hypocritical and bigoted. He was encouraging a violent stereotype of Christians and Evangelicals and the fear of Christians among Jews, who certainly have a reason to be sensitive on the issue. The stated basis for his fears is also, to be blunt, wacky: a Super Bowl victory sparking synagogue burnings? Huh? Can we go over this again, Rabbi?
Religious intolerance, and disrespect for religion generally, has reached dangerous levels when an ethical, sincere, loving young man like Tim Tebow can become the object of such attacks simply because he is openly devout. His critics need to take a step back, and though it may cause them to break out in hives, consider the Golden Rule.
I guarantee Tim Tebow does.
Ethics Alarms 
It needs to be said that the “notable Quran-burning” in question was almost definitely the one in Gainesville, Florida, epicenter of the Tebow Lovequake, and the response was, “Shut the hell up. You’re blocking traffic to the game.” (It should probably also be said that it, you know, didn’t end up happening.)
The Quran burning happened. It was just delayed for 6 months.
…that in Tebow’s belief system are the product of his relationship with his deity
That’s why he’s a horrible role model. If you believe in Jesus, then good things will happen to you!
Also…doesn’t Tebow say that God doesn’t affect the outcome of games? You’re saying he’s a liar?
The truth of religion can be disputed, but the fact that faith has helped human beings overcome obstacles, conquer personal problems, develop confidence and lead better lives cannot
The truth that killing is good can be debated, but the fact that killing has helped human beings overcome obstacles, conquer personal problems, develop confidence and lead better lives cannot.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that killing is good or religion is good.
If the Broncos’ miracle finishes cause some individuals looking for inspiration and guidance to embrace Tebow’s faith, great.
Really, you think it’s great to cause people to believe falsehoods? Your ethics alarm is broken.
Religious intolerance, and disrespect for religion generally, has reached dangerous levels when an ethical, sincere, loving young man like Tim Tebow can become the object of such attacks simply because he is openly devout.
He’s being attacked for spreading falsehoods… and that’s a bad thing? You sound like the neighbor of a depraved felon: “What they’re doing to him is wrong. He loved his family. They say he committed fraud and stole millions of dollars, but he’s a good man. Stop attacking him.”
The Rabbi made some stupid statements, but thinking that Tebow may cause some people to convert to Christianity was not stupid. Thinking this is a bad thing is also not stupid.
1. I know this kind of thing is a red flag for you, tgt, so I cit you some slack as your usually detached rationality crumbles, but really—what makes people good role models is what values they embody in what they do, not what they may happen to think to get them there.
2. Killing isn’t “good” and nobody sane argues that it is. Comparing religion to killing makes you sound unhinged. A prayer never hurt anybody, even when the prater was for God to kick someone’s ass.
3. I think if believing falsehoods helps someone live a more productive, healthier and happier life, it’s an easy utiltarian trade-off. Again: why do you care what someone else believes? Truth is not the absolute goal of life.
4. He doesn’t believe it’s a falsehood. The fact that you say its a falsehood doesn’t make it conclusively so. And believing falsehoods is not always harmful. You’re an absolutist on this, and that’s a mistake.
5.The Rabbi went way beyond saying that Tebow could cause “some people” to embrace Christianity. I’m sure he could. So what?
1. I don’t think you can accept reason from action for role models like that. If a Judge comes to the right decision by flipping a coin, but the result is correct, is he a good role model? Moreover, Tebow’s actions include displays of his religious beliefs. If he’s a role model, he’s a role model for following Jesus. You can’t simply say we should ignore that part anymore than we should ignore LT’s cocaine usage.
2. I didn’t compare religion to killing. I showed the pointlessness of that particular argument. Just because some people have been helped by something doesn’t make that something good.
2.1. Your characterization of religion as “harmless prayer” is a horrible whitewash.
3. Sure, if all religion did was help people, it’d be fine. But (as we’ve been over), that’s not all it does. It leads people to ban interracial couples from singing, to beat their children, to whip rape victims, to make homosexuality a capital crime. Again, the issue with religion is belief without evidence. Sometimes the result is good, but it also allows great evil. There’s no reason to believe the dangerous beliefs are required for the good, so it is objectively bad.
4. I didn’t claim Tebow believes he’s saying falsehoods. I did point out that if your suppositions about him are true, he’s a liar, but I built my arguments assuming the best for him.
4.1. The fact I say its a falsehood doesn’t make it conclusively so, but I have never claimed such. The complete lack of evidence for Tebow’s Christianity and overwhelming evidence against such says that. You strawmanned me.
4.2 Believing falsehoods is not always harmful, but putting faith above evidence is dangerous. This was covered in 3.
5. I don’t think I implied that’s all the rabbi said. If so, that was a mistake. I believe the Rabbi said some really stupid things, but an extremely limited subset of what he said is true.
5.1 More people embracing belief without evidence is bad, because belief without evidence is dangerous. You think it’s a net neutral if more people ignore reason?
accept/except. They’re the same word, right?
Ever think of just finding a little dark corner somewhere, getting down on one knee and praying a bit? It can do wonders for your state of mind.
…so can meditation. Nothing supernatural to it.
(Also, if you forgot, I was raised Catholic, and my Dad spent 8 years in the Jesuits. I’m not exactly ignorant of what people find comforting in religion.)
I would seriously debate the statement that a prayer never hurt anyone but my head will explode so I will have to leave that to someone more rational on the topic. Taking prayer breaks between whipping a child might be considered a relief for the child but the prayer is what caused the beating in the first place. Prayer hurts people every day, Jack.
That makes no sense at all. Prayer hurts someone as often as blowing one’s nose hurts someone. Does meditation harm people? Wishing? Hoping? Jogging? A one-person activity by a consenting adult, with no power or force exercised over another? Whatever your theory is, it’s impossible. The belief in prayer can hurt the individual who believes and relies on prayer rather than personal autonomy. But prayer itself? One of the most harmless forms of free speech imaginable.
It can do someone tangible good, however. Just like a smile or a song.
And there is the arguement. Prayer in my experience is rarely a one person activity by a consenting adult, with no power or force exercised over another. Carrie is a more accurate description of prayer than that. You have someone screaming at you to get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness, while simultaneously pushing you to the ground, for a grass stain on your jeans and then tell me no power or force is exercised. I could be wrong but I have never seen anyone justifying and perpetrating abuse in the name of meditation or jogging. We would call them crazy and very likely intervene. With prayer, we accept it and call them religious. Then we help them spread it globally by saying it is only the extremists. When the extremists out number the middle, they are no longer extreme.
Danielle, based on the details that you weave into your justification for your beliefs, you must have experienced some horrendous things, and I am sorry. You need help in separating the cause of the abuse from your perception of the cause. Evil and twisted people justify their evil and twisted deeds in all sorts of ways, and using religion as justification is probably one of the more common. However, you cannot blame prayer or faith for evil. The person who uses prayer or faith to justify his evil is to blame. If I wrote that more love is needed in the world, and a perverted person used that as an excuse to abduct and molest another person, saying that was his way of showing love, I would not be responsible. My words would not be responsible. The individual who twisted the meaning of the words to fit his own twisted view of love would be responsible. And I cannot speak to other religions, but justifying and perpetuating abuse in the name of Christianity is every bit as perverted, probably more so, as doing it in the name of anything else. Christ did not teach abuse and violence; He taught mercy and forgiveness.
Shelly, I thank you for the empathy but the experiences I detail belong to my mother. Thankfully, by the time I came along, this government was not so openly supporting crazy religious zealots. Not that I was ever inclined to follow Christian beliefs but if I was, understanding evolution and history would have promptly cured me of the affliction. I stand by my statement, when the extremists become the majority, they are no longer extreme. They become an accurate representation of the belief system.
The issue isn’t in the specifics, it’s in the generalities. If you protect belief without evidence, then you ARE partially responsible when someone else’s belief without evidence goes bad.
It’s not the act of praying that hurts people, it’s the deference to religion.
* You pray for your son’s asthma to get better? Not harmful.
* You pray for your son’s asthma to get better and forsake medical treatment? Harmful.
—
* You say that religion is just prayer? Harmful.
Go Broncos! It’s been a fun ride, but we have to host the Patriots this weekend. If anyone remembers the Detroit Debacle…here comes the sequel.
Two weeks ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an awesome Tebow article–one that I thought was worthy of the Onion. It’s worth reading twice: once quickly for laughs and a second time for some self-examination as to why you’re laughing.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203833104577070351117638504.html
Maybe I give people more credit than they deserve, but I have no more problem with Tebow’s enthusiasm about Christianity than I do with Tom Cruise’s enthusiasm about Scientology. Anyone who converts to a religion because of a celebrity probably also thinks the widow of deposed President Mbutu Malimba really does need their personal help to free up 20 million dollars in frozen assets.
Anyone who converts to a religion because of a celebrity probably also thinks the widow of deposed President Mbutu Malimba really does need their personal help to free up 20 million dollars in frozen assets.
So…it’s okay to trick gullible people?
Jack, thank you. Your blog entry on this is ethics elucidation virtuosity to me.
Why should Tebow’s piety be any more off-putting, annoying, objectionable, despised, intolerable or frightening than any other public figure’s exposure of his or her “main thing?”
By the way, I am not going to say any prayers about the game coming up between the Patriots and Broncos, except for “the usual” concerning physical safety and health of players. I would not bet against the Patriots winning.
I think what we are seeing is just another example of the forces and powers of newer media: not all good, not all bad; unpredictable as lightning (appropriately enough); sometimes unifying, sometimes Balkanizing; “NSFT” (Not Suitable For Tyrants) – at least, so far, it seems; and, a zoo-at-one’s-fingertips of just about every imaginable manifestation of human behavior.
I still recall some “cardiac days” of the Dallas Cowboys and their uncanny game-saving, scrambling quarterback, Roger Staubach (who might fairly be called somewhat of a Tebow for his days), and Craig Morton of the Broncos (who I recall also was vocal if not demonstrative of his faith). I waste time (though I strive not to) wondering how might those guys hold up to the cruelties of celebrity status, had they been players these days.
Why should Tebow’s piety be any more off-putting, annoying, objectionable, despised, intolerable or frightening than any other public figure’s exposure of his or her “main thing?”
So long as the other public figure’s “main thing” is living a life dedicated to falsehood, it shouldn’t. Any examples of similarly popular people with similar “main things” that they expose as often that are not similarly ridiculed? Tom Cruise meets all the conditions, except he was attacked when he let his inner insanity out.
Mr.Tebow is not the first, and probably not the last, to take a knee and appear to give thinks to some higher power for their success on the gridiron. So what? Why did this rancor not erupt over the “prayer meetings” that take place at the 50-yard line at the end of many games where players from both teams kneel down in what appears to be prayer. Its been going on for years. I can personally attest to prayers before football games over 50 years ago…. and the prayer was not for victory but for a credible performance unmarred by injury to any and all participants. Sometimes it worked, but I have knees that are proof that sometimes it did not.
Mr. Tebow also takes the time to include his teammates as reasons for the team’s success, something those who want to use him as a role model hopefully will also embrace. His behavior is certainly an improvement on some of the other celebratory performances we see in the end zone, let along some of the behaviors off the field; Michael Vick and Plaxico Burress come immediately to mind. As a life-long (theirs, not mine) Oakland Raider fan, I wish Mr. Tebow had been a bit less successful this year… whatever the underlying reason for his success might be or what he might believe it to be.
A warning to those so worried about people following “falsehoods”: Get some earplugs– election season is ramping up and millions of people will be following all kinds of falsehoods, and the impact will be more important than the Broncos’ final season record.
Mr.Tebow is not the first, and probably not the last, to take a knee and appear to give thinks to some higher power for their success on the gridiron. … His behavior is certainly an improvement on some of the other celebratory performances we see in the end zone, let along some of the behaviors off the field;
So you are claiming Tebow’s behavior is not abnormal, but then you turn around and say it is new.
So what? Why did this rancor not erupt over the “prayer meetings” that take place at the 50-yard line at the end of many games where players from both teams kneel down in what appears to be prayer. Its been going on for years.
He’s not the first to do those things, but you’re cherrypicking behaviors. Religious eye-black? Making national commercials based upon his religious beliefs? Trying to get people to pray at the wonderlic? He’s a new breed. Also, even without the religion, he’s a polarizing figure. “He just wins” by failing to gain a single yard and getting saved by a 59 yard field goal, and by causing the other team’s running back to run out of bounds.
Sometimes it worked, but I have knees that are proof that sometimes it did not.
It never worked. Sometimes you got injured and sometimes you didn’t. It had nothing to do with the prayer.
A warning to those so worried about people following “falsehoods”: Get some earplugs– election season is ramping up and millions of people will be following all kinds of falsehoods, and the impact will be more important than the Broncos’ final season record.
If you think this has anything to do with people caring whether the Broncos win or lose, then I think you’re missing something.
If Jack writes an article about how we shouldn’t attack over their crazy religious beliefs because they are a good person. How we all need to get some perspective. I’ll respond in the same way, but throw in attacks on their fitness for office as well.
Tebow doesn’t get a pass because more important people do the same thing.
If Tebow in fact thanked Kellogg’s for making Wheaties, he’d really be in trouble from the General Mills folks.
Oh, crap.
I practice religious tolerance because what a person believes about gods, souls, and similar imponderables is the most intensely personal, unprovable, and private part of human existence. My beliefs are mine, and yours are yours. If we decide to discuss them, fine; if not, that’s OK too.
History is smarter than any of us and truer than any belief. History shows that social problems — TERRIBLE social problems — happen when I tell you that your beliefs are wrong, and try to convince you of that by some means other than respectful speech. It is a regrettably but demonstrably small step from shouting and abuse to cross-burnings, lynchings, purges, crusades, and jihads. If there’s anyone out there who thinks that any of these results are ethically desirable, I’d rather not hear from you.
I don’t like what Tebow does any more than most of those who attack him. But he isn’t shooting at me, or even ringing my doorbell distributing pamphlets. As far as I can tell, he says nothing at all about anyone else’s beliefs. He doesn’t assert that his successes prove that his beliefs are better than anyone else’s, and he doesn’t suggest that he does better than the other guys because they believe the wrong thing. He tells people how he himself came to be who he is, and act the way that he does. I may not agree with him or believe him. So what? If everyone in the world found a different religous route to respect, tolerance, and charity, I’d cheer for every last belief and not worry about whether, in my puny estimation, it was “true”.
what a person believes about gods, souls, and similar imponderables is the most intensely personal, unprovable, and private part of human existence.
What people believe is definitely provable. Also that people are wrong is also provable. The young earth creationists are definitely wrong. Anyone that believes the fable of Adam and Eve is definitely wrong (the population was never less than 10,000).
History is smarter than any of us and truer than any belief. History shows that social problems — TERRIBLE social problems — happen when I tell you that your beliefs are wrong, and try to convince you of that by some means other than respectful speech. It is a regrettably but demonstrably small step from shouting and abuse to cross-burnings, lynchings, purges, crusades, and jihads. If there’s anyone out there who thinks that any of these results are ethically desirable, I’d rather not hear from you.
Your argument is that wrong people do bad stuff when they’re told they are wrong, so anyone who tells the truth is doing bad stuff. Seriously?
If everyone in the world found a different religous route to respect, tolerance, and charity, I’d cheer for every last belief and not worry about whether, in my puny estimation, it was “true”.
Sure, if we were in a world where there were no negative results of religion, then Tebow’s prominent religion would be a positive. Similarly, if punching someone in the stomach made the punchee feel good, then I wouldn’t have a problem with Tebow punching random people in the stomach.
I don’t push truth because true must be better than false. I push truth because in our world, believing in false things leads to negative consequences.
I left out something in reference to this:
what a person believes about gods, souls, and similar imponderables is the most intensely personal, unprovable, and private part of human existence.
That this is private and intensely personal is not common throughout human history. It’s not even common today. Counterexamples: Missionaries, Politicians, half of AM talk radio.
Really, it’s a smokescreen that only comes up to defend beliefs from being proven wrong.
Because an individual chooses to make the private public doesn’t mean that the topic isn’t appropriately private. If we are going to object to Tebow kneeling, is wearing a veil or yarmulke intolerable? It is the nature of all group to try to recruit members—why is this more offensive for religions than for, say, Democrats and Republicans? Because religions deal in falsehood and Democrats and Republicans don’t? (Insert punchline here)
Because an individual chooses to make the private public doesn’t mean that the topic isn’t appropriately private.
Historically, it has been public, not private. Tom’s comment that it is a “private part of human existence” was a rewrite of human history.
If we are going to object to Tebow kneeling, is wearing a veil or yarmulke intolerable?
Strawman. We’re not objecting to Tebow kneeling. Football players have been kneeling forever.
It is the nature of all group to try to recruit members—why is this more offensive for religions than for, say, Democrats and Republicans? Because religions deal in falsehood and Democrats and Republicans don’t? (Insert punchline here)
Because Religion is based on faith. Religion celebrates truth without evidence. Democrats and Republicans historically haven’t. Of course, right now, the Republican party has gone off the rails away from reality, and they are being appropriately attacked for it.
It’s not falsehood that’s bad, per se, it’s raising faith above evidence. Falsehood was shortcut for that.
Thanks for sharing. God bless you. I wrote a piece on Tim about a month ago: http://scottsholar.com/2011/11/18/not-ashamed-of-the-gospel/
Keep on rolling Timmy. Remember, “when the world hates you, it hated me first”.
I’ve never understood the foaming at the mouth anger that other atheists have towards people like Tebow. I don’t believe in god but of it helps Tebow then good for him. All that hate and anger I see directed towards him doesn’t make think for a minute that Tebow is right or wrong. But what it does make think is that the people going after him have some serious emotional problems and I don’t respect them or their opinions at all.
I don’t believe in god but of it helps Tebow then good for him.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. We know that belief without evidence is dangerous. It might not be for Tebow specifically, but it is generally. Respecting Tebows beliefs gives credence to the respectability of belief without evidence.
I know, it doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker, but it’s not that difficult an idea.
But what it does make think is that the people going after him have some serious emotional problems and I don’t respect them or their opinions at all.
Why don’t you respect rational arguments?
“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.”
Those adhering to religious beliefs are not ignoring history; the formation of religions have shaped history, some for evil; some for good, but that is the nature of man. The history of religion is the history of man.
“…belief without evidence is dangerous.”
No, belief without evidence is faith.
“Why don’t you respect rational arguments?”
Why don’t you respect other people’s beliefs? Just because they differ from yours does not make them irrational. I respect your right to believe as you choose; do you not owe me the same courtesy?
“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.”
Those adhering to religious beliefs are not ignoring history; the formation of religions have shaped history, some for evil; some for good, but that is the nature of man. The history of religion is the history of man.
I didn’t say that those adhering to religious beliefs are ignoring history. I said that believing ‘belief in religion is personal and without public negatives’ is ignoring history.
“…belief without evidence is dangerous.”
No, belief without evidence is faith.
Yes, belief without evidence is faith, and faith is dangerous, as I have already explained in this thread. If you can counteract my argument and evidence, please do so. Just stating that I am wrong is not an argument.
“Why don’t you respect rational arguments?”
Why don’t you respect other people’s beliefs? … I respect your right to believe as you choose; do you not owe me the same courtesy?
Beliefs that are false and that cause bad things are not worthy of respect. I don’t respect belief in Zeus or that murdering people is good. I do respect your right to believe as you do, but I absolutely do not respect your belief. See the difference?
Just because they differ from yours does not make them irrational.
Of course not. Being wrong makes them irrational. That strawman has already been replied to in this thread.
Bill, the foaming at the mouth anger may stem from something other than just being atheist. I can get irrationally angry discussing Christianity but I am aware of that and try not to have the conversations when I feel that anger sliding up my back and into my shoulders. I am usually able to walk away before my head explodes. For me, it stems from what was done to my grandparents and my mother in the name of Christianity. Christian residential school was not a choice for my grandparents and it absolutely destroyed my mother. Arguements about her individual resilience and personal strength aside, she was not able to survive being forcefully taken when she became school age and then taught, on a violent daily basis in the spare the rod, spoil the child days, that her language, religion and culture were filthy and despicable and that her entire family were savages that she was not allowed to see until she was let out of the “school”. She never recovered. Anyone trying to push me into a religious battle of words pays for her troubles through my anger. Not fair, I know, but like my mother, I have been unable to muster the personal will to let it go. Christians would be fine if they would stop trying to push their beliefs onto everyone else. That is the real question, I think. Why is it that the religious can’t seem to keep their religion to themselves? If it is such a protected, personal choice then let’s keep it personal. I don’t care what people believe, I care that they keep trying to convince me to believe. Being psychic is the same as being religious in my mind and I don’t have psychics knocking on my door trying to convert me or showing up in idiotic droves trying to shape the laws to promote said idiocy. Their message was summed up by W C Rice rather succinctly with his mantra, Hell is hot and you will die. We get it. Let’s move on.
Today is a day for me to be grateful that I don’t follow sports beyond the Stanley Cup finals. Thankfully, I have no idea who Tim Tebow is. Having said that, I have never encountered someone openly devout without the ulterior motive of conversion of others. It seems to be part of the program in general, unfortunately. Probably the only time you would hear me say this but I wish they would just stop sharing the wealth.
I’m confused about the Rabbi’s beliefs. I thought that people of the Jewish faith believed that personal salvation was through belief in a Messiah to come, the Christ of God (a title, not a name), and that the departure of Christianity from Judaism occurred when Christianity accepted Jesus of Nazareth as having fulfilled all the Old Testament prophesies and therefore as that promised Messiah and Judaism did not. The Rabbi speaks of personal salvation of one’s soul as something not consistent with Judaism at all.
The rabbi was correct in his writings and the only sin here is that he or his newspaper were (presumably ) forcibly censored.
The religious right are a scourge in America and are responsible for so many ungodly things. It is a rabbi’s role to advise and speak of these ills.
Whether he likes it or not the footballer is a role model and he earns the big bucks because of it, He has influence.
He uses that influence to demonstrate his faith but that faith has deadly consequences. Unless it’s a fantasy that the religious right have so much influence and George Bush Jr was lying when he said God told him to invade Iraq..
However no-one should stop the footballer. It is his right to demonstrate his faith.
Just as the rabbi has a right to speak out against him.
You do draw a long bow though to infer people are jealous of the footballer’s success as I see nothing in anyone’s comments to suggest that. Unless Bill Maher said it but I never watch him.
Ossie: I agree that the rabbi’s opinion was his right to express, but don’t you think the argument places unfair responsibility on Tebow, based on excessive fear of Christians? He’s a decent man, from all reports more than decent—non-violent, respectful of other faiths—and yet his success coupled with his open religiosity is a threat to Jews? To accept that, one has to accept a stereotype of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians that is monolithic, fanatic and violent, when this just is not the case. Yes, some people see Jesus on pizza’s and go nuts about it, but using a football quarterback’s achievements as motivation to persecute Jews and others would require mass nuttiness that it is unfair and insulting to infer. The rabbi’s fears seem more typical of the kind of wild leaps, prejudices and suppositions that were characteristic of violent anti-Semites in Europe; it looks like anti-Christian bigotry and libel to me. I’m no fan of the Christian right as a political force, but neither God nor that groups was responsible for US foreign policy decisions regardless of what Pres. Bush may have said about it. The rabbi’s anti-Tebow mood is the result of hysterical and unwarranted fear of the Christian right, and his screed is, therefore, pure bigotry. There’s no justification for it.