This topic was unwittingly recommended by my younger sister, a reliably liberal Democrat who, to my knowledge, has never read Ethics Alarms once in its 23 years of existence. (Don’t you think that’s strange? I think that’s strange, but I refuse to let it bother me. Much….). She had to tell me about the eruption of an international women’s rights, #MeToo, “sexual assault” cancel culture controversy in the wake of Spain’s first Women’s World Cup championship because I pay as little attention to soccer, international or otherwise, as humanly possible.
Shortly after the championship game’s final whistle, Luis Rubiales, the head of Spain’s Soccer Federation, joined the jubilant on-field celebration, and at the award ceremony, Rubiales took midfielder Jennifer Hermoso’s head in both his hands and…kissed her on the lips!!!!
Searching for relevance and headlines now that her own soccer career is mercifully over, woke activist Megan Rapinoe told The Athletic that the kiss reflected “the deep level of misogyny and sexism in the federation. It made me think of how much we are required to endure.” (I don’t know about the “we” part in Rapinoe’s case: I think an over-excited soccer official would be more likely to spontaneously kiss a scorpion.) Everybody piled on. Spanish soccer coach Jorge Vilda ripped Rubiales, saying in part “I regret deeply that the victory of Spanish women’s football has been harmed by the inappropriate behavior that our, until now, top leader, Luis Rubiales, has carried out.” Eleven members of the Spanish women’s team coaching staff tendered their resignations over the weekend, expressing “their firm and categorical condemnation of Luis Rubiales’ behavior towards Jenni Hermoso.” 81 Spanish players, including all 23 World champions, vowed to go on strike and refuse to play until Rubiales is removed from his position. FIFA, the international soccer organization, suspended Rubiales from all football-related activity for 90 days pending an investigation—yeah, maybe he secretly planned the kiss weeks in advance, for example). The Spanish government publicly supported the decision.
Not one to try to subdue an outbreak of “gotcha!” indignation against a powerful male in a sport that has profited so much from feminist grandstanding, now Celebrated Victim Hermoso said the kiss was unwanted as she joined her World Cup-winning squad in refusing to play while Rubiales remains president of the organization. “I did not like this incident,” she wrote in a statement on The Platform Formally Known as Twitter. “I felt vulnerable and a victim of an impulse-driven, sexist out of place act without any consent on my part.”
You know, like…
They court martialed that sailor, remember?
For his part, The Mad Kisser, no weenie he, gave a defiant speech before the federation’s General Assembly vowing, “I will not resign!” He called the controversy “fake feminism” and insisted that the kiss was “mutual,” describing an alleged conversation in which he asked the athlete for a “small peck” and she consented. So we are now firmly in the realm of “he said-she said” and “Believe all women!”
Yes, this is an international ethics train wreck, and a particularly stupid one because it could have been easily averted if everyone involved has behaved like ethical, fair and compassionate human beings, observed the principles of Kantian ethics and Reciprocity, and not sought to exploit a situation for political and ideological gain.
When my sister, whose daughter, mu niece, went to college on a soccer scholarship, brought up the story, her question was, “Don’t you think this incident is being blown way, way out of proportion?” I was initially going to present it as an Ethics Quiz, but that question is too easy: of course it’s being blown out of proportion.
Rubiales was out of line kissing the player like that. He should have been given the benefit of the doubt given the circumstances; seldom has “pounced” been a more appropriate word for the feminist warriors’ reaction. Hermoso should have graciously let him off the hook and said that it was no big deal. Instead, she undermined the credibility of feminism by acting as if a grown woman can’t handle an old man who crosses a line during a celebration and an unwanted kiss is a major injury.
Placed in the position of being represented as a rapist-lite, Rubiales can be forgiven for fighting back, especially because the obligatory grovelled apology would have validated the unethical political exploitation of his gaffe to spark another #MeToo resurgence (since the Harvey Weinstein-inspired first one has thoroughly disgraced itself), but he’s toast, and certainly knows it. The appropriate place for his defiance was in his resignation speech.
Good job, everybody!
Oh, and Spain? Now do bull fights.
__________________
Ethics Alarms 
Rubiales was a fool. Yes, in a situation like that you can have impulses, but as humans, not animals, we’re supposed to govern our impulses, not let them govern us. This is doubly true in a world in which one wrong word or accidental touch can destroy a life and you know it.
No argument there. But the US news media has downplayed this story compared to the sports media, and I think it’s because they are, again, protecting Joe Biden. He’s been close to this line again and again, still tries to stael kisses, feel-ups and sniffs whenever a female is within reach, and nobody’s called him on it in a sustained and serious way. They can’t go bonkers over one kiss in a celebration and slide past Joe, who is a serial assaulter. So this story is mostly on page E 78.
Biden is an idiot, and not just when it comes to this issue, he’s never been the sharpest arrow in the quiver. on any issue. I think he’s got borderline satyriasis, the same as Bill Clinton, with an admixture of pedophilia. Bill Clinton at least didn’t act weird toward kids, not that that’s saying much. Clinton also didn’t just reach for whatever happened to be within his wingspan, that particular behavior was an Andrew Cuomo thing, who finally was forced into resigning.
As I’ve gotten wiser, I’ve concluded that anything that isn’t also fun for the other person just plain isn’t fun and isn’t right. Any kind of affection from a woman is an honor to be bestowed, not an entitlement to be grabbed. And kids? Forget it.
I ‘ve said several times that Joe is 1/3 fading grandfather, 1/3 punch-drunk boxer whose best days are past, and 1/3 creepy uncle who can’t (or won’t) keep his hands to himself and tries to laugh off anyone who calls him out on his behavior. The first type is heartbreaking, the second just pathetic, but the third is just evil in a slimy, disgusting way. A family is likely to regret putting a fading grandfather in a facility, even though it may be necessary. A bar or gym owner might be somewhat sorry about having to tell a punch-drunk boxer he can’t come around anymore, again, though it’s necessary. No one is going to be sorry about getting rid of a creepy uncle, it’s just usually a question of who in the family is willing to man up and take action. No one ever did it against Joe, so now we’re stuck with him, and the media has to zip it, lest they make him look worse than he already is. So other pigs benefit.
I’ve long thought Jill is guilty of elder abuse. She and the rest of the cabal actually running the “Biden Presidency,” so called. They all just a bunch of greedy grifters using Joe to keep the grift going. “Four Years at Bernie’s, or Maybe Eight.”
“I don’t know about the “we” part in Rapinoe’s case: I think an over-excited soccer official would be more likely to spontaneously kiss a scorpion.”
Well… That and it was a celebration for winning a game.
I thought Jack’s response was a burn, but I’m feeling like I spent the weekend shirtless in the sun after just having read this comment.
The Spanish and Mediterranean tradition of greeting someone with kisses dates back to first Greek and then Roman times, as both ancient civilizations adopted the gesture as a sign of affection. Look at the gentleman’s age and the culture he and others from there grew up in, including a kiss on the cheek to men. He also kisses the gentleman coming up on stage to accept the award. Yep, he was over-excited.
I can not believe he meant anything by the kiss other than he was proud of each team member and excited beyond words seeing all their hard work paying off.
What a shame some news wanted to focus on a few seconds of a video instead of showing the whole lead-up to this young girl being kissed because it would have shown he was caught in old country tradition during a moment of excitement instead of the craziness of the modern world.
The video below shows him kissing the male team members, also.
Spain hoists the trophy after winning the 2023 FIFA Women’s World Cup final
My relatives were all Greek, and were all addicted to kissing loved ones on the lips, and not only family members. Please explain all of this to tunnel-visioned Army Grog in this thread, who blandly states that “A unwarranted kiss on the lips by a stranger is by default, sexual.” Not only isn’t that true, the soccer player wasn’t a stranger, but in that exuberant moment,a loved one.
When I first saw the photo, I figured our beloved Prez had progressed to adult females but then noticed the dude is bald. Why didn’t Hermoso push him away??
That would have been an emphatic reaction thereby making it clear for all the world to see that the old lip smacker was unwelcome. Plus, that level of embarrassment would have been the ideal punishment and an example of what strong empowered women do.
Inside sources report that Rapinoe is secretly envious because no one wants to kiss her bitter lips, all of them.
Oooooh, someone’s going to need some ice for that burn.
Batman writes, “Why didn’t Hermoso push him away??”
From the picture, she is tightly wrapped in his two (strong) arms, while holding her trophy down to one side. I don’t see a genuine opportunity to take a defensive position given the circumstances. He’s a grown man that knows and knew better. We all do in this global culture. I don’t give Rubiales any pass.
He also had the element of surprise—unless, as he claims and she denies, he asked permission for “a peck.” But that wasn’t a peck…
Ian, she is a strong world class highly conditioned soccer player who could have resisted regardless of her position. My guess is that she was caught off guard and because of cultural conditioning simply did not think to resist, but then she said:
now Celebrated Victim Hermoso said the kiss was unwanted as she joined her World Cup-winning squad in refusing to play while Rubiales remains president of the organization. “I did not like this incident,” she wrote in a statement on The Platform Formally Known as Twitter. “I felt vulnerable and a victim of an impulse-driven, sexist out of place act without any consent on my part.”
Ian back to Batman: if it is true that, “ she is a strong world class highly conditioned soccer player who could have resisted regardless of her position,” then it has to also be true that because “she didn’t resist” in the instance the kiss occurred, then she WANTED it. I don’t believe she did, just as much as I don’t fall for the “believe all women” mantra. The initiating act by the Prez was wrong, period. After that it’s all prejudging except was is obvious. And we are in no place to judge Hermosillo, who didn’t see what was about to happen. It simply does not look like she was enjoying the moment.
They court martialed that sailor, remember?
Are you really arguing since sexual harassment was accepted in the 40s, that it should be okay now?
No, I’m STATING that the VE Day kiss wasn’t sexual harassment, then or now. It was not sexual, it was not unwelcome, and there were unique circumstances. Michael Corleone wasn’t sexually harassing Fredo when he kissed him on the lips either.
A unwarranted kiss on the lips by a stranger is by default, sexual.
Grabbing a stranger and kissing them is sexual harassment.
We didn’t even know who that woman was in that famous photo until fairly recently so I’m not sure how you get to decide any of those things.
And it’s up to the person who was harassed to decide if it was unwelcome or not.
Thanks for all the rote talking points. I teach this stuff. It’s not that simple, but ideologues and power-mongers want to make it that simple. The V-E day kiss was not sexual harassment—not at that moment, not in that culture, not in the minds of any of the women who experienced that and similar kisses If you can’t recognize that special circumstances justify nuanced analysis, then you have nothing constructive to contribute to the conversation. Intent matters, for example. And if someone wrongly assumes that the kiss was wanted, or at least not unwanted, then they deserve consideration.
Intent matters, for example.
Not to the person being harassed.
not at that moment, not in that culture, not in the minds of any of the women who experienced that and similar kisses
All this proves is that some people were allowed to get away with sexual assault while others did not.
For instance, if a random black man did that to a white woman on the street that day, it would not have gone so well.
The officers that day got leeway because of their circumstances, not because it wasn’t sexual assault, which it was.
This is what the woman had to say:
“It wasn’t my choice to be kissed, The guy just came over and grabbed!”
Another reporter asked what she was thinking at that moment. “I hope I can breathe…I mean somebody much bigger than you and much stronger, where you’ve lost control of yourself, I’m not sure that makes you happy.”
And this just goes back to your original point, that circumstances and times are different.
If you want to kiss someone on the lips without making sure they want you to, make sure you’re okay with the consequences if they consider it a sexual violation of their body autonomy.
“Not to the person being harassed.”
But it does matter to the person who is “harassed” in many cases, and often it is crucial. That’s why rational people don’t cry harassment when the intent was innocent The topic here is ethics, not law, not vengeance, not powerplays, not “gotchas.” sexual harassment law is necessary but horribly flawed: there is no other offense in which the victim gets to decide unilaterally whether the elements of the offense have been met.
“All this proves is that some people were allowed to get away with sexual assault while others did not.”
Wrong. Cultures change and ethics evolve. Intelligent people with senses of proportion and perspective realize that. The V-E kisses were universally considered romantic, spontaneous, and harnless, and at that moment, in that circumstance, they were.
“For instance, if a random black man did that to a white woman on the street that day, it would not have gone so well.”
So what? A completely different issue, and irrelevant to the topic at hand.
“This is what the woman had to say (etc.)…”
As another commenter has pointed out, she changed her story after the uproar. I thought that might have been the case. So the kiss was initially “not a big deal” and then became “unwelcome.” That’s another weakness in the law: a welcome or not-unwelcome kiss or touch can become unwelcome in retrospect after lobbying or pressure from peer groups.
If you want to kiss someone on the lips without making sure they want you to, make sure you’re okay with the consequences if they consider it a sexual violation of their body autonomy.
Wow, great rule! Who would have ever thought of that? I’ve never person the first one to kiss or touch anyone in a relationship, so I don’t need that unsolicited advice, thanks. But I have been in situations of great excitement were strangers were hugging and kissing each other, and if they weren’t mentally parsing their joy while reviewing the recent sexual harassment court opinions, GOOD.
Sorry I have to discuss this. This is important:
That’s why rational people don’t cry harassment when the intent was innocent
Are you saying a woman who is sexually harassed by someone isn’t rational if they claim they were harassed if the person who harassed them didn’t really mean for it to be harsssment?
I’m saying, because it’s true, that ethical people don’t look for reasons to hurt people who make an innocent mistake, and ethical people presume others are innocent unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. You deal with a single case of possible sexual harassment by saying: “That was wrong, don’t do it again, to me or anyone.” And you give the individual a change to explain or apologize. That’s how a decent society works.
“reasons to hurt people who make an innocent mistake”
I’m confused why you care more about the harm done by accusing a harasser of harassment than the harm that the harasser inflicted on an innocent person.
You’re argument is essentially “meh, they didn’t really mean to harass you, you should just let it go”
That is not my argument. You don’t comprehend the reasons for sexual harassment law, or the essence of ethics. The idea is to educate people about fair and ethical ways to treat each other, not to cause maximum harm to an individual who makes a genuine mistake. The “harm” in a case like the soccer player being kissed was minimal—and though you chose to ignore that detail, the evidence suggests she agreed. Circumstances, environment and facts matter: sexual harassment where a line had been crossed with extenuating circumstances cannot and should not be treated the same as deliberate predatory behavior. I question the god faith and motives of anyone who can’t see that, as you apparently can’t.
That was your last comment on this thread. If you are not a single issue troll—or blog harasser—then move on to another post.
I looked the player up on wikipedia. It does not mention her having a husband or significant other. To my thinking the proper response would be to inform one’s very large significant other and leave it to him to teach this guy what happens to those who trespass in another man’s domain. My thought would be to arrange for Rubiales’ face and the corner of a dumpster to get to know one another really well.
For Christ’s sake, it’s SPAIN! It’s Europe! It’s southern, Latin Europe. MEN kiss each other to say hello or goodbye. Heterosexual men. Even in frigid northern Europe, the Dutch kiss each other, men to women and vice versa, to greet each other and to say goodbye. Three kisses. Left cheek, right cheek, left cheek. This just shows how terrible woke American culture has begun seeping into European culture. The soccer player who got kissed should have defended this guy saying something along the lines of, “It’s okay. We’re Spanish.”
OB,
I think it is the location of the kiss that is controversial along with the power differential and taking advantage of the circumstance.
Sure. You’re three for three. But again, the benefit of the doubt is appropriate: I very much doubt the guy’s first thought when his team won was “Great, now I can finally tongue that hot soccer player!”
Jack, I am not advocating the guy be severely skewered but I personally recoil at the idea of some crusty old smelly tongue seeking to breech my lips. I also think the dude took advantage of the situation but that cannot be proved.
Did the guy French kiss her? He kissed her on the lips, right? Isn’t this the player who scored the winning goal and securing the World Cup Championship for his organization, thereby doubtless earning this guy some sort of substantial bonus or a lengthy contract renewal? The guy’s Spanish. He probably has a thirty-year-old mistress. What a vacuous, mirthless, tedious, inhumane world these nazis want us all to inhabit as if we’re zombies.
OB, check the picture again and note how he fully embraced her looking exactly like he was kissing his “thirty-year old mistress.” This goes beyond the Spanish cultural norm. He took advantage. He needs to keep his saliva to himself.
What I do not understand is that Jack says he kissed her on the lips but the picture indicates the cheek. How many kisses were there? I mean, were they making out on stage?
The only lip kiss photo I could find was from behind the player. Apparently the moment of the lipsmack was missed, and the one I have was a nano-second after.
Oh, I agree: a simple reprimand would be appropriate, indeed, necessary.
True. A friend of the family had to stop two distant cousins from Spain (their first visit here) doing that with me, explaining that in America we don’t do that with people we’re meeting for the first time. And maybe some of the Europeans wish their touch-happy colleagues would dial it back?
I guess I get it, the indignation and shaming, Hermoso coming around to understand she was a “victim”, the protest, the inflexible righteousness .. but not at first. First, I had to rid my mind of Rapinoe having a voice in the cacaphony as in my recently updated book she’s history, DQ’d, like Kaepernick, forever, both for her spectacularly poor play in USA’s woeful effort and for endorsing participation of transgender men in womens’ sports.
Wouldn’t team america’s players have liked to win a championship .. pretty sure the last thing on America’s minds would have been an indiscretion in a celebratory melee.
#MeToo ferried to Spain and implemented into the tender and vulnerable hearts and minds of these world class athletes . . . without a cultural tweak?
Jack, you have more than one sister? I always thought your (attorney) sister was older than you.
No, she’s two years younger. She just acts older.
Hilarious. Oldest daughter always outranks all sons.
Yea, little sisters can be good at that.
“Yea, little sisters can be good at that.”
This much I know; I have four (4) of ’em!
The two (2) X-Chromosomal Unit onlookers didn’t appear miffed, quite the opposite one might opine; maybe they need a sitdown with Rapinoe, et al, to get on board with a straight story?
And in that shot, doesn’t Rubiales’s prominent schnoz (might he be cast as Leonard Bernstein?) seem to be in her ear and his lips appear to be planted her right cheek/lower jaw?
This just in: “Estate of Don Larson Sues Estate of Yogi Berra in Bronx Court Claiming Sexual Assault.”
It’s worth noting that the alleged victim, Hermoso, initially dismissed the uproar and said (something to the effect) that while she didn’t give permission it was “no big deal” (good luck find HF that initial story, it’s getting buried now). It appears that she changed her tone and started playing up the victim card when feminist “activists” (mainly in other countries, especially US and UK) tried to capitalize on it, and were quickly joined by lefty politicians and activists. I’m gonna venture a guess that Rubiales is no lefty darling.
Wow, It would be worth sticking around for another 100 years or so to see how this game goes, but sadly I think I’ll have to leave early.
It seems to me we are much more a product of evolution, rather than some external ‘God’ with an interest in fairness, right and wrong. Our ancestors from whom we inherit our DNA and much of our behaviour, were the winners in the breeding stakes, not those top of the ethics class. Many (most?) of our male ancestors must have been sexual instigators, if not outright rapists. The two most successful drives through evolution seem to have been the male interest in young fertile females, and the female interest in having children.
This is NOT in any way to excuse male sexual harassment however it occurs. We have decided ( a microsecond or so ago in evolutionary time) that we will try to incorporate ideas of fairness, ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. And I hope we all support that, although there is plenty still to quibble about. Female emancipation is an important part of this, but it is very early days, and personally I’m not sure it is going well.
If I do get a second innings (reincarnated as a male) in 100 or so years time, I’m going to be very interested to see whether any young female asks me to dance, or kisses me impulsively on the lips. And if she requests my ‘consent’ I’ll let you know! There should be a lot to talk about.
Over the last about fifteen years I have handed out various sports medals and cups to various people and have watched others handing them out as well. I have found that it is the older women over the age of about 40 or maybe 50 that like to kiss, never the younger ladies, so I guess it is a generational thing on who likes to kiss. If I see a male try to kiss a younger women when handing out the cup or medal, then it is has been obvious each time that the young woman does not like it. So I would advise any man in that situation to avoid giving out a kiss unless he knew her well.