I know this is a tangent; its (attenuated) connection to ethics is my contention that members of the culture and society have an obligation to maintain at least minimal cultural literacy, without which it is, I beieve, impossible to be a responsible, competent, engaged and credible member of society. A DC Bar set of legal ethics opinions (370 and 371) regarding social media made an equivalent point. No, a lawyer doesn’t have to use social media in his or her practice or participate in it, but a lawyer must know what it is, how it works, the various varieties, and more because it is a major feature of modern life and American society.
I was re-watching the excellent (and tragically truncated) Netflix series “Mindhunter” over the weekend. At several points, the brilliant, well-educated FBI research consultant played by Anna Torv reveals a total ignorance of sports, at one point, for example, confusing minor league baseball with the Little League. The major sports in the U.S. are too central to American history, entertainment, language, culture and passion for a competent citizen to be that clueless….and an amazing number of people, especially women, are that clueless. You don’t have to know the infield fly rule, but if you don’t know the names and at least basic facts about Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Shoeless Joe Jackson and Jackie Robinson, you have some homework to do.
In the wake of the “Jaws” post, the comments it sparked and the provocative Comment of the Day on it, I have some further thoughts about icons.
1. The meaning of “icon”we are discussing is “a person or thing regarded as a representative symbol or as worthy of veneration.” The rubber meets the road with the words “regarded” and “worthy.” Regarded by whom? We are discussing cultural and societal icons, meaning that the entire, or majority, of society along with its culture regards them as representative symbols of important aspects of American history, values, beliefs and culture.
2. Within the culture as a whole there are many segments, niches, and sub-groups. All of them can have their icons, but that does not make them cultural icons. Ty Cobb, Ted Williams and Sandy Koufax are baseball icons, but not societal, cultural icons. Randolph Scott is a Western movie icon, but John Wayne is a cultural icon. (In the definition of “icon” one can find the phrase, “this iron-jawed icon of American manhood.” It took me a while, but I traced the line to an old piece about “The Duke.”)
3. Icons can expire. Fifty years ago, Jimmy Cagney was thought to be an icon; “You dirty rat!” was a easy laugh when uttered by an impressionist. Today most people don’t recognize the name, the reference, and have never seen a Cagney movie. None of them were in color in his prime: Jimmy’s icon days are over. So are Boris Karloff’s, and, I fear, Fred Astaire’s. (I’m worried about Shirley Temple). Raquel Welch was an iconic sex symbol for a couple of decades, but no longer. Marilyn Monroe endures.
4. I don’t think there are cultural demi-icons and minor icons. In the discussion in those two posts about Spiderman’s alleged iconic status, my verdict is this: When he has the same level of recognition, cultural history and staying power of Batman and Superman, the character will be an icon. Both of those icons had long-running TV shows about them in prime time; both continue to be referenced in other genres. Their nemeses have even become cultural touch-points: the Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus have not reached the status of Lex Luthor and the Joker. Maybe Spidey will make it. Right now he’s a superhero icon, but not a cultural one.
5. I have some substantive evidence to offer in the dispute over whether Nirvana is “iconic.” Yes, Nirvana is a grunge rock icon, but not a cultural icon. On SiriusXM, there channels devoted to popular music acts of the past that rank their own year-round channels. The Beatles, Elvis, and Frank Sinatra seem to be the longest-running examples, but there are also channels devoted to Bruce Springsteen, The Grateful Dead, U2, Tom Petty, The Dave Matthews Band, Phish, and Pearl Jam.There is no Nirvana channel. “Lithium” is the grunge rock channel, where “you can hear Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, Weezer, Oasis & more.” Nirvana is listed first, and that’s appropriate, I guess. But a cultural icon would have its own, permanent (Sirius inserts short term channels for artists like Billie Joel and the Beach Boys) dedicated channel. I concede that some of the decision-making at SiriusXM has to do with the output of various artists and, in some cases, negotiations with rights-holders.
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Pointer to Steve-O-in NJ for additional SiriusXM data.
Ethics Alarms 
I agree with you on this. Cultural icons are people/things just about everyone knows whether they are into a certain genre or not. I know there will be some people who will point out some obscure location that might not know it, but there are exceptions to everything.
4) I would say Spiderman probably fits into it now. Certainly over the last 20+ years it would be hard to be in the US and not know who Spiderman is. There have been 8-9 popular individual movies with him in it, not to mention a number of Marvel movies. Even if you’re not into Superhero’s, you know who he is. (The villains not so much).
5) I agree with Nirvana as well. While they are one of THE leading acts of grunge, there are a lot of people who just don’t know any grunge music. They’re known, but not to the point you can go to any random person and ask who they are and name a song.
By the way, there are a few musical acts that have year round stations and have had them for a long time on SiriusXM. Bruce Springsteen, Grateful Dead, U2, Tom Petty, Dave Matthews Band, Phish, and (while not Nirvana) Pearl Jam. They’ve been around a good 5+ years now. I’m sure there are a couple of others but those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Bob Marley has had one for a bit now also and may stay a permanent channel. (I’m only counting radio ones, not through the internet).
Yes, I forgot the Grateful Dead, which I knew about, and I’ll correct the post. Thanks.
PS. Is that your new handle now?
Whooops. Sorry. I have a couple of names saved on the computer for different things that automatically pop up. Usually it’s NJSteve11 or FLSteve11. (Had NJ from when I got married and moved to NJ where my wife lived, FL since moving to Florida years ago).
I don’t reply much (since generally I agree with your viewpoints, so don’t want to be replying “Yeah me too” type stuff), but I do check the site daily when home (ie when not traveling, which we do a lot), so just click on the top one.
I am a huge music fan, where my tastes tend toward hard rock (Bad Company, Robin Trower, The Warning [who I think is one of the more refreshing new artists in a long, long time]), prog (Rush, King Crimson, ELP, Peter Gabriel ear Genesis, Marillion, Kansas, Jethro Tull), and heavy/symphonic metal (Within Temptation, Dream Theater, Lacuna Coil, Epica, Iron Maiden, Priest, Deep Purple, Sabbath). I liked Nirvana, though. They exploded at a time when rock was at a musical crossroads and needed a good, stiff kick in the seat of the pants. And, boy did they.
Nirvana was the first big band out of Seattle, but others will stand the greater test of time (for instance, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Smashing Pumpkins) because their music and legacy are bigger and more profound, and have influenced many more bands or artists.
Nirvana’s influence should not be dismissed or diminished. When I heard “Smells Like Teen Spirit” and saw the video, I thought, “well, hey now, what’s this? This is ugly and interesting.” That video was, in my mind, iconic. The presentation was dirty, gritty, unpolished, and unrefined, speaking of disaffected youth. Musically, though, it is a pretty simple guitar part, The drummer said he copied his fills from Sly and the Family Stone. The bass part is pretty straight forward but it propels the song along and keeps you hooked. Every thing a good song should have and do. It does it in spades. Their MTV Unplugged was terrific.
I can’t listen to Nirvana and not think of Cobain and his suicide. He left a wife and a young daughter to pick up the pieces after him, which was cruel. I also can’t forgive him for foisting Courtney Love on the world, a wholly untalented miscreant.
jvb
You just covered many of the thoughts I tried to convey in my post to Halthomps original post that became the COTD. I wrote it twice and both times an attempt to edit my response caused all text to be deleted. I have to remember to do my composition in Word and then copying to WP. Anyway, thanks for expanding on the topic.
Happens on my phone all the time.
Very frustrating to have half the comment deleted because I am trying to compose something coherently and need to make a change.
-Jut
If Sirius thinks Oasis is grunge, that just confirms I made the right decision when I dropped the service. (It was annoyingly difficult to end. I had to call and sit on hold, just to be offered a discount if I didn’t drop it. I might have considered it, if it had been a “don’t go” offer on the website. Amazon channels always get me to stay that way. But if I have to call, then wait and wait to talk to someone, I’m already gone.)
I understand having no patience with people who don’t know culturally iconic things. I feel the same way about people who think it’s cute that they don’t use email or don’t understand the basics of how computers and websites work.