Nyaa-nyaa! What are you going to tweet now, Bill?
There are few things I care about less than NFL football. However, having just seen Tim Tebow’s Denver Broncos upset the favored Pittsburgh Steelers in their play-off game with a shocking first play touchdown pass in overtime, I am greatly enjoying the distress this must be causing the likes of Tebow-haters like Bill Maher, Rabbi Joshua Hammerman, and every pundit who has expressed contempt for an honorable and decent young man whose twin offenses have been open religiosity and athletic success.
Is this unkind of me?
Yes, I suppose it is.
Ethics Alarms 
Me, too. Immensely! These elitists can’t tolerate the concept of a talented Christian man who gives the glory of his achievements to God instead of going on an ego binge. It’s not only alien to Maher’s mentality, but it also shows him up in public for his own myriad shortcomings. For a professional elitist, this is not to be born.
Why is Tim’s display of faith that much different than all the athletes in the past couple of decades? His faith is a plus but he is a decent man unlike so many of the recent celebrities and their fall from grace.
Previous athletes didn’t do PSAs about abortion while still in college, or put bible quotes in their eye black. If you can’t see what’s different about Tebow, then you’re not paying attention.
Does it matter if he did a PSA about abortion while in college? Celebrities do that all the time. Maybe not about abortion. And a few of them before they were old enough to be in college. As far as the quotes in eye black; athletes have been wearing jewery or tattoos out on the field for some time. Some of them have been crosses. Jim McMahon, a former Chicago qb used to advertise many things on headbands and such during his career. We could quibble about what athletes do on and off the field that the public notices for a very long time. I was asking how is the public display of his faith so much different than others who have done similar displays to God in their celebritory dances and antics during the game? And I can name a half dozen and also show you tons of pictures of the athletes saluting or praising God after a homerun or a touchdown and even after winning some other sports event. If you haven’t noticed them, then you aren’t paying attention either.
I was asking how is the public display of his faith so much different than others who have done similar displays to God in their celebritory dances and antics during the game?
During the game? No, it’s not much different, but where did you get the idea that that his on the field praying is the reason he’s attacked? It looks to me like you’re strawmanning it up.
Are you on the old “straw man” kick again? The only reason Tebow is being jumped on is that he gives thanks to God as a part of his faith. This used to be common and accepted among athletes on all levels. That was, however, before certain elements set themselves to penalizing all expressions of the Christian faith in public- regardless of venue- by lawsuits, threats of lawsuits and media badmouthing.
I stand by my comment that Michael is attacking a strawman. If you have evidence that I am incorrect, please show. As it is, you’re appealing to ignorance and trying to make valid logic seem silly.
You’re close, but not quite right on the second part. There are two reasons Tebow is being attacked. One is most definitely that he is very proactive in his religion…. and he is rightly criticized for having ridiculous beliefs. The second is because he…well…hasn’t been particularly good. He hasn’t been horrible, but average is enough reason to criticize someone when they are being treated like the second coming.
The beliefs are only ridiculous if they aren’t your beliefs. Maybe he isn’t the best qb in the league but his team is winning with him at that position. There must be some sort of chemistry since it is producing positive results on the field. And against the NFL’s top rated defense. As far as his praying on the field and his display of his faith; he has the freedom to do it and I have the freedom to look away. It isn’t hurting anything. If it was provoking violence on the field I may think differently.
The beliefs are only ridiculous if they aren’t your beliefs.
BS. It’s absolutely ridiculous to believe the world is 6000 years old or that a mystical sky fairy is watching over the players and your prayers help them from getting hurt.
Maybe he isn’t the best qb in the league but his team is winning with him at that position. There must be some sort of chemistry since it is producing positive results on the field. And against the NFL’s top rated defense.
Again, Tebow isn’t bad. The Broncos have a great defense, and for the Pittsburgh game, they had an excellent game plan. You should also check your statistics. Pittsburgh had a good defense this year, but it wasn’t top rated by any of the advance stats that actually try to measure how good a defense is. Anyway, this part of your argument can be responded to with two words: Trent Dilfer.
You’re right…. I don’t have definite proof that the world is even over 200 years old except what the history books and a few other physical things. But I am also sure that there are some thoughts and beliefs that you have that are hard to believe as well. So Trent Dilfer was the only qb that was on a winning team that the defense was better than the offense? As far as advanced stats, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Maybe you could point to what stats I should be looking at. As far as the stats I see is Pittsburgh had a better season as far as yards and points given up per game. You can always throw intangibles into the mix.
I don’t have definite proof that the world is even over 200 years old except what the history books and a few other physical things.
That’s enough to show that your opinion is worth, well, nothing.
But I am also sure that there are some thoughts and beliefs that you have that are hard to believe as well.
Equivocation.
So Trent Dilfer was the only qb that was on a winning team that the defense was better than the offense?
No. He was a below average quarterback that won a dominating Super Bowl. Winning != Quarterback is good.
As far as advanced stats, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Maybe you could point to what stats I should be looking at. As far as the stats I see is Pittsburgh had a better season as far as yards and points given up per game.
Try http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef or http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teampage.php.
Yards and points are affected by things unrelated to defensive play. They’re not a particularly good metric of team defensive ability.
You can always throw intangibles into the mix.
By definition, if it’s an intangible, you can’t throw it into the mix.
Michael, there is definite proof that the world is over 200, 10,000, 10 million years old. Please don’t say thing like that…it gives me a headache.
Yes, During the game. After a homerun or touchdown. I got the idea from the media. Does he get down on one knee and pray in the parking lot? Has the media caught him praying on the practice field? What are the reasons he is being attacked if the public display isn’t the reason. I don’t remember Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, or John Elway being attacked by the public for their celebrations. And this is his second year in the NFL, so the excuse that he is a rookie sensation is out the window.
I guess I don’t see his praying on the field hurting anything. If it was holding up the point after or the fluency of the game I’d imagine there would be a delay of game penalty. Otherwise if you rule against that then there will be more rules against other displays and antics during the game. What’s the purpose of a game if there can’t be any celebration?
Now this comment I’m fully in support of. Going to the ground in the endzone is a penalty? Giving the football to a fan is fine, but signing it first is a penalty? Dancing is fine, but if two people dance, it’s a penalty? The Lambeau Leap is fine, but jumping in the stands anywhere else is a penalty? Sometimes imitating another team’s celebration is a penalty and sometimes it isn’t?
Yep that is what I was getting at.
Actually, he does try to get people to pray at random events, like the wonderlic. The eye-black also was new, and he was very outspoken at Florida about his religion.
It’s not the public display on the field, it’s that he put himself out there in college as God’s little football player.
He was attacked while at Florida and all last year. This isn’t new. There’s more now that he’s playing because he’s higher profile now.
I think you’re probably wrong on this—it is the in-game praying that gets people’s goat, Take that away, and he’s just another religious athlete.
Speaking for myself, the only reason the in-game celebrations are annoying to me is that they remind me of his outer persona.
I’m afraid that you gave yourself away (as if you hadn’t many times previously!) with your anti-Christian rant. If you want to be an atheist, that’s your right and privilige. If others choose to believe in God and offer Him a simple prayer of thanksgiving, that’s their’s. To hear you tell it, you’d think he sacrificed a ram on an altar on the 50 yard line. He’s not forcing his faith on you, so leave him alone.
Constantly misrepresenting my position doesn’t make you look good.
I’m afraid that you gave yourself away (as if you hadn’t many times previously!) with your anti-Christian rant.
What anti-Christian rant?
If you want to be an atheist, that’s your right and privilige. If others choose to believe in God and offer Him a simple prayer of thanksgiving, that’s their’s.
Hey something true!
To hear you tell it, you’d think he sacrificed a ram on an altar on the 50 yard line.
Then apparently you aren’t listening.
He’s not forcing his faith on you, so leave him alone.
No, he doesn’t directly affect me, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t negatively affect our world.
You have a neat way of avoiding the issue with misdefinition, then accusing a replier of the same thing (with the strong elitist hint that he’s not bright enough to keep up with you!) then following up with a blatant display of radical leftist dogma presented as if it were a rational afterthought. Then, if all else fails, comes The Straw Man. As Inigio Montoya once observed, “I dun thing that word means wot you thing it duss.”
In this thread:
* What have I misdefined?
* What have I misaccused?
* Where have I implied that someone is not bright enough to keep up with me? It only counts if there’s another option other than bad faith.
* Where have I used “leftist dogma”?
* Where have I misused the logical term “Strawman”?
* Great quote. I’ll give you the changes in spelling, but you still messed up the ending. It should be “means” not “does.”
I see accusations, but I don’t see any support for them.
What outer persona? The guy loves his Mom, helps the community, isn’t a felon like 25% of the NFL. So he’s open about being religious. I agree: who does that harm?
You mean their wasn’t an outside the lines about his religious homeschooling? He didn’t put himself out as a spokesman for Focus on the Family?
As we went over on the previous thread about Tebow, he is embodiment of belief contrary to evidence, both in his religion and in the fans who think he’s a “winner”.
He is by definition a winner. How can you dispute that? He has a winning record. This is Joe Kapp and Billy Kilmer all over again. A quarterback who leads his team to victory is a winner, no matter how wobbly his passes.
Why is it heinous for a nice guy to promote what he believes in? I don’t get it. “Mistaken” doesn’t equal “Bad.”
I was referring to people who think that being a “winner” is a skill that helps in the future.
Yes, Tebow’s team has won games, so winner is descriptive. That in no way affects the chances for his team to win future games.
I agree, mistaken doesn’t equal bad. I’ve never said it does. What’s your point?
Point: there is no legitimate reason to dislike the guy. He’s kind, he’s honest, he loves his mother; he obeys the law; he does his job well. He stands up for his beliefs. He has integrity.
The point is incorrect. Believing in fairy tales is a legitimate reason to think someone is an idiot. If you have other appeal, it’s a legitimate reason to think they’re dangerous.
I don’t particularly like dangerous idiots.
You’re still rattling around in that box-sized universe that you’ve made for yourself; all of which is predicated on your desperate notion that there is nothing greater to it than your own ego. When others express a different attitude (or faith) you leap at it and them. This is what I referred to in my previous remarks. Your attitudes are your option and privilege. Just don’t blindly attack those of us who hold to a Creator and a universe that far surpasses us.
You’re still rattling around in that box-sized universe that you’ve made for yourself; all of which is predicated on your desperate notion that there is nothing greater to it than your own ego.
False and false. Not a good start. I don’t ascribe to a box-sized universe (physics currently shows infinite one that is at least aleph-one), I don’t make up the size of the universe for myself, and even if those were true, there is no notion, desparate or otherwise, that there is nothing greater in the universe than my ego…whatever that may mean.
When others express a different attitude (or faith) you leap at it and them.
One, I attack the ideas foremost. Two, I don’t simply attack “attitudes”…well, other than the “attitude” that faith is good or neutral. I do this by using evidence and reason, not simply unsupported assertions.
This is what I referred to in my previous remarks.
This might be an artifact of wordpress’s comments, but I don’t follow. Which remarks?
Your attitudes are your option and privilege.
True.
Just don’t blindly attack those of us who hold to a Creator and a universe that far surpasses us.
I don’t attack blindly. It is also my right and privilege to criticize other positions.
Jack, Sorry I was kidding about the proof of the world not being any older than 200 years old. I was frustrated by tgt’s remarks about beliefs. I should have not responded at all rather than say something dumb like that. You probably have figured I do that alot.
Tgt,
I think the points and yards per game do tell of a team’s success in offense or defense. Yes, there are other stats as well and that could be debated forever. It could depend on many things. They have been doing this for a long time with Vegas and fantasy football. I like the fact that there is a new underdog right now that is probably giving fantasy football managers and bookies fits. With Tim being a Christian and a decent person makes it easier to cheer him on. So many athletes that are considered winners are, in my opinion cheats. Maybe not in sports, but in the real world. I’d rather cheer for a decent loser than an unethical winner!
I think the points and yards per game do tell of a team’s success in offense or defense. Yes, there are other stats as well and that could be debated forever.
This is the same logic that Intelligent Design proponents use.
I like the fact that there is a new underdog right now that is probably giving fantasy football managers and bookies fits.
I’m cool with that. It’s the deification that’s a problem.
Surely if anyone gets a pass on an anti-abortion PSA, it’s someone who only exists because his mother rejected advice to abort him! All those things may make him “different,” but none of them individually or collectively justify active antipathy.
Reblogged this on Basil Wheel.
Grateful for your kind posting of this, Jack. I confess: I even opened the door to my back yard and yelled “GO DENVER!” moments after the winning score. It was hard to believe that Denver could beat the Pittsburgh defense like they did, but they did it. Tebow did well; it’s comforting to be able to trust that the man is savoring the victory in a way that fairly includes the contributions to victory that are attributable to his teammates.
I cant help but be a tebow fan now. I have been leaning that way for a couple of weeks now but their victory over the stealers (spelling intended im from seattle) has cemented it.
I don’t get why people care, either. As long as he doesn’t cross over into the “excessive celebration” territory for which other players are penalized, or shout “Boo-ya! That’s Jesus-power for you!” at the other team, let the man be who he is.
Jack, unlike you, I follow football closely and contrary to some wildly maniac belief – it is still a team sport. Last night the DENVER BRONCOS won–not Tim Teabow. He had a very good game. But the team couldn’t have done it without a ferocious offensive line, some talented wide receivers and a dominating defense. That combination pulled off a victory. The better team won.
All of the continued conversation about religion is distracting and misplaced. I wish this whole Tebow thing (good and bad) would go away.
I believe I said, “Tim Tebow’s Denver Broncos”, which puts the emphasis on the team. The reason for all the attention given to this 8-8 team is clearly its quarterback. I don’t disagree with your pint, but it’s irrelevant to the post.
I confess that I find Tebow incredibly annoying… never liked him, long before I knew anything about his religion or his politics. But then I remember that the guy on the other team is a sexual predator. Tebow’s ability to aggravate doesn’t seem so bad in contrast.
Yes…I was wondering when someone was going to mention Ben’s problem.
Ah, schadenfreude.
As a sports blogger, it is more than familiar to me, and unfair though it may be, occasional indulgences are a guilty pleasure for us all, I expect.
You know what? I don’t give a damn about football (hell, I only know the rules because of marching band), but my impression of this issue is that while it’s one thing to simply legitimately criticize Tebow’s ideas on faith, it’s quite another thing to make personal attacks against him when he’s not an asshole like Pat Robertson. I’ll save my breath unless he actually begins to denigrate non-Evangelicals,
Brother Tebow’s open, in-game religiosity “…neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket…” (quoting ol’ Tom Jefferson from my faulty memory).
A bit ostentatious? Perhaps. He rather reminds me of those basketball players who make the Sign of the Cross, i.e., bless themselves, before every free throw (as if Father, Son and Holy Ghost really CARE if they make a one-pointer or not).
Not a great big deal. I suspect that those critics who find Tebow’s action “offensive” are among those claiming a Constitutional right not to be offended.
Not tgt. I’ll give him that.