I have a lot of pressing ethics posts on the metaphorical EA runway, but I have to get this one down while it is fresh in my mind.
Once again dealing with the pharmacy at CVS (no, the company never did respond to my complaint of rude and abusive treatment from last year; it just kept promising an investigation that never happened and a response that never came), I found myself waiting for prescription that I had been told was ready three days ago. An elderly woman sat down next to me, and started up a conversation: she was black, probably in her seventies, and less than four feet tall, with severely malformed legs.
I wanted so much to talk to her about her life. What was it like? What obstacles she must have overcome! Were most people kind and fair to her growing up? What prejudice and bigotry had she encountered? What was her view of humanity? Of America? Of race? Was she bitter, or did she have a positive view of the world? I would have loved to do an ethics podcast with her.
Yet there is no way, none, within current boundaries of etiquette, consideration, privacy and respect, to have such a conversation. All I could do is share my candy bar with her and chat amicably and emptily. She had, I think, a lot of wisdom to share that would help focus my ethics perception, yet there was no way to ethically unlock it. It was as rude to begin the conversation that I wanted to have as it was irresponsible to pass up the opportunity to have it.
Ethics Alarms 
If you see her again, ask her an open-ended general question.
“Do you think society is learning from history?” That moves the conversation into deeper, more serious territory while leaving your own opinions on what there is to learn and whether it’s being learned almost perfectly ambiguous, because your opinions should be absent if you’re looking to learn from her.
If she wants to talk about her personal experiences, she will. Otherwise, her opinions on the question, how she expresses them, and the topics she chooses to focus on will allow you to infer the broad nature of her experiences.
The question isn’t “what do you want to know?” The question is “what does she want to talk about?” If you give people opportunities to tell you things, they may just take them. People often like talking about themselves to those who will listen with a friendly ear.
When interviewing people for more detail than they’d casually share, I’m given to understand that it’s polite to at least buy them a meal. If you’re benefitting professionally from the experience I believe it’s customary to offer monetary compensation, although I’m not sure what the going rates are for guest interviews on historical perspectives.
Etiquette is semantics mindset serving its complementary mindset empathy: rules for creating predictable impressions. If your empathy is well-calibrated, you can bypass many rules. That is part of the nature of empathy. You just have to think about what people might care about and give them opportunities to confirm or refute those possibilities.
Once you know what they care about, you can find an idea that aligns what they care about with what you care about, and suggest that to them. (Ethical principles require that you genuinely believe that the idea would benefit them and that they would concur, and that you be honest about things you think they might want to know, such as how it would benefit you as well.)
It’s been awhile since I’ve started a philosophical conversation with a stranger, but that’s how I’ve done it in the past. The technique has worked reliably for me.
I tend to agree with this.
People like to talk about themselves (if they like talking at all). There are lots of inroads to that.
Even asking the simple question, “How have the last few years treated you?” It is a simple and bland kind of question, but it implicitly brings up bigger issues if people want to talk about them.
But then, you have to listen. And not judge. Even if the person says dumb things. If you are there to learn (not teach), just keep them talking. You can always judge later, but, if you start the conversation, you “opened the door” as they say.
My dad was good at that. Even if it never passed beyond small talk, he would not shy away from talking to complete strangers wherever he went.
I have some of that, but it takes effort.
If you see her again, I strongly encourage you to open that door.
I gave another suggestion, you could say, “you know, if we were sitting next to each other in a bar, I would have to ask you what you are doing there, but what do two people sitting at the pharmacy at CVS have to talk about?”
I will have to file that away for future reference.
-Jut
“People like to talk about themselves (if they like talking at all). There are lots of inroads to that.”
When I read this, I immediately thought of all the progressives who insist that asking people of melanin where their families came from is racist, and how would I feel if I were asked that question?
I’d love it. Please ask me that question. My grandfathers back several generations were all deeply interesting people. I’m third, fourth, or fifth generation off the boat, depending on the family line.
But as with most progressive outrage, the misunderstanding comes from a lack of empathy coupled with Olympic-level projection: They hate the question, so they assume everyone else hates the question.
But I have it in the back of my head that the quoted line is probably closer to normal. I’ve had all kinds of people open up to me about themselves and their families. Old people always have the best stories.
If the opportunity comes up again, I’d try, cautiously.
You’re still using CVS? I thought you said you moved all your prescriptions elsewhere.
Just one of them—the most expensive one. The rest—too much trouble for now. Eventually.
Jut, EC—I appreciate the feedback. My thinking was pure Golden Rule, based on discussions with some, let’s say unusual looking friends. I assumed that this delightful lady was sick of being stared at or singled out for her uniqueness. We had a nice, cordial conversation exactly—I think—-as we would have if she were 5’8 and an epitome of senior fitness. I would think that would be welcome, but who knows? Maybe she likes talking about her life, limits, triumphs and challenges. I assume the most ethical course is to do and say what is least likely to make our encounter uncomfortable for her. Yes, I would benefit from more personal details, but absent certainty that she would enjoy enlightening me, I decided that the most ethical course was to treat her like I would anyone else.
The problem with that approach is, of course, that she knows I know she isn’t like everyone else, and I some level, maybe my choice comes across as a lie.
If you make conversation in a way that makes it clear you’re interested in her life and willing to listen, without actually requesting that she share anything, that puts the choice in her hands. That’s ethical even if you don’t do the same for more average-looking strangers. Treating people with respect doesn’t require treating everyone exactly the same; that’s part of what makes empathy important.
If she chooses to have a more typical conversation, that conversation isn’t a lie. It’s just courtesy. If you choose not to indicate interest because you don’t know how to do it politely, that’s also courtesy.
Does that make sense?
Really? This is surprising. I had to read “How to win friends and Influence People” for my career path. It helped with a lot of these awkward conversation starters. I find that 99% of the time, people love to talk about themselves. Simple things like what did you do in life lead to easy follow up questions, like how long, anything interesting happening, etc.
“But then, you have to listen. And not judge. Even if the person says dumb things. If you are there to learn (not teach), just keep them talking. You can always judge later, but, if you start the conversation, you “opened the door” as they say.”
I learned in China that when they didn’t like something they would say “it’s interesting.” It was there way of ‘saving face.’ Now when I teach if someone say something incredibly wrong or dumb, I use that and move on. Almost never is there follow up. I got chewed out by my elders for telling someone that what they said wasn’t true. It wasn’t mean, they even agreed I wasn’t being vindictive, but the person still complained and here we are. There is a lot of hand holding in my profession which can be frustrating, but a lot of my job is to keep peace.
Hmmmm . . . I wonder if my wife is part Chinese. Every time I walk into the room she says, “that’s interesting.”
jvb
I laughed, well done.
I’d be fascinated to find out how much of this is regional culture at work. In college, my room mates from the Pacific Northwest kept telling me how unfriendly and reserved they found New Englanders, and that in Spokane and Seattle, a stranger could walk down the street and people would just strike up conversations with him or her. I told them that was obviously BS.
Then I visited them over one summer, and damned if they weren’t telling the truth.
It still feels weird to me. And I’m an extrovert.
Local differences regarding the depth of personal information one shares with complete strangers can be quite jarring. I know I experienced culture shock when I moved to North Carolina for several years. As a general rule, southerners are quite comfortable striking up conversations with complete strangers, but North Carolina took it to a whole new level. Perfect strangers would tell me their entire life stories simply because I happened to be standing in the same elevator with them. I was confused and befuddled the first few times it happened, and I can’t say I ever became accustomed to it. There are regional differences, but also much more localized differences in culture that can be quite shocking to those not accustomed to them.
People do like talking about themselves, but there is great cultural variation in what level of acquaintance they feel comfortable doing so.
I think I agree with this. I’ve heard that New England can be one of the toughest mission fields in the US. A number of my peers won’t go there for fear it won’t be a long term career. I’ve never heard that about the NW, but in the Midwest and south, people can be pretty easy to talk to. I just moved to SC last week. Wasn’t even in town for an hour and stopped in a restaurant to get a bite to eat. The cashier was wearing pants that said “senior 2023” so I asked her about graduating and I got a 10 minute conversation about how she’s nervous and scared about going to college and moving away. Yesterday I was at a kid store and the lady working there spent 15 minutes talking about her kid (who was around the age of mine) how she’d lived her her whole life and was excited I was starting a new job. Even said she would love to come visit the church. I don’t know if it matters but both of these people where black (late teens, mid-40s). Was some of the best conversations I’ve had in a while.
I can’t imagine VA being too much different.
“Yet there is no way, none, within current boundaries of etiquette, consideration, privacy and respect, to have such a conversation.”
No, you think too much. Sometimes you just have to connect and be uncomfortable and awkward and that’s ok. Welcome to humanity. Perhaps your paths will cross again and you can embrace the uncertainty. Real conversations are important and are not part of political correctness. Imo that fear of being judged and real is part of what is causing issues in our society. Let them lead. They can say no. It’s not up to you what they choose to share anyways.
“I define connection as the energy that exists between people when they feel seen, heard, and valued; when they can give and receive without judgment; and when they derive sustenance and strength from the relationship.” Brene Brown
And that’s the essence of ethics zugzwang. It is true: thinking too much can lead to the wrong decision. So can not thinking enough, or “going with your gut.” I practice ethics chess. Even if it may not have worked in this unusual case, it’s a crucial habit.
True, but at our most basic level, we’re wired to connect with others. Political correctness of today makes it hard. Even if you reach out and it goes wrong, which it probably won’t, people can usually sense honesty, you know your intentions were pure and that’s all you can do. Like I said before, it’s not really up to you what they choose to share anyways. It’s on them.
Sometimes you say it wrong and that’s ok, or don’t say what should be said. Which might be just as bad. It’s not like we have a script… my bet is the universe, fate, God, luck, whatever you want to use will give you a second chance and you’ll run into them again. Life is funny that way. Now I need to take my own advice. Tragedy happened in my little community last week, I suppose that colors my comments to you. Tomorrow is never, ever promised. Not even to 10 year old little boys. In reality those tiny human connections are necessary to the little threads we weave in our tapestry of life. They all start with a moment of authentic vulnerability. I have a feeling all 11 people killed in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend combined will have less community support than the family of this one boy struck by a car, although I hope I’m wrong. Maybe if they did, if every life was considered important or valued, things would be better.
This alleged wiring is used, among other abuses, to make me prey for panhandlers and for Girl Scouts to make me feel guilty for walking past their table selling cookies when I have limited time…or religious group reps knocking at my door. Respecting autonomy is an ethical value, and it includes the right to be left alone. My default assumption is that any stranger is like me, absent strong signals to the contrary.