I guess because I regard podcasts as a waste of time, the term “Groyper” was happily outside my consciousness until very recently. The main reason I encountered it at all was the latest Tucker Carlton controversy that metastasized into a big PR problem for the Heritage Foundation. Tucker—note please that Ethics Alarms identified him as a principle-free, self-aggrandizing, cynical Ethics Villain years ago, even before his Fox News stardom: See? “I’m smart! I’m not dumb like everybody says!”—has been cozying up to Hitler apologists, Holocuast-deniers, anti-Semites and white supremacists because, as usual, he’s decided that its where the clicks and “likes” lie among the easily fooled and ignorant. After he had a slobbering interview with white supremacist (above) Nick Fuentes (whose followers call themselves “Groypers“), Kevin Roberts, president of the Heritage Foundation, posted a disgaceful video on social media praising and defending the creep (I mean Carlson in this case) while using terms that sounded like anti-Semitic dog-whistles.
I should have posted on it, but I wrongly assumed Roberts would have been forced to resign by now. The board of Heritage should get cracking: one thing conservatives, Republicans and MAGA do not need is for the #1 conservative think tank to be perceived as backing fascists (referring to Fuentes this time) and lying assholes (back to Tucker).
As an aside, Roberts’s excuse for his unacceptable conduct is that—he really is trying this!—he didn’t know what he was talking about. “I didn’t know much about this Fuentes guy,” he said in the staff meeting, according to a video posted online by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative news outlet. “I still don’t.”
Gee, is it better to have a white nationalist-enabling weenie as head of a think tank, or an idiot? “Who could believe that the head of a think tank doesn’t think?” said Charles Jacobs, the president of the Jewish Leadership Project, after he resigned from a Heritage Foundation task force meant to fight antisemitism. “If it’s true, he’s incompetent, and he should leave for that reason,” Jacobs said. “And if it’s not true, he’s a liar.”
Yes, that about sums up the alternatives.
The Groypers are almost exclusively Gen. Z men, a group that went heavily for Trump in the 2024 election. This recent post on X makes a strong case that the movement is a rejection, spurred by panic, pessimism and the efforts of the Left to make white males second- (or third-) class citizens, of the DEI hierarchy they have been taught they should accept….
[I]f you want to understand where Fuentes gets purchase with young men I will tell you how it happened by telling you about my experience at the orientation night when my son joined elementary school band:
My 11 year old son son joined the elementary school band, and so I went to the parents orientation night which was held at a local high-school. As the night went on it became obvious to me why young men rage against the larger social system.
The classrooms were inundated with DEI messages and trans pride flags. On the walls there were posters, stickers and various decorations that all invoked the various totems if diversity. Black lives matter messaging, decolonization messaging, LGBTQ+ messaging, and basically ever sort of race and gender social justice messaging you can imagine was present. The advertisements for post secondary opportunities featured social justice education prominently, including advertising a course on indigenous ways of knowing” as something grade 12 students should pursue upon graduation. Many of the teachers has “this is a safe space” sticker son their doors, and others had variations of “in this house” messaging on their doors or on the walls of the classroom.
The entire aesthetic which dominated the decoration of classrooms was the progressive leftist coded “in this house” and “be kind” aesthetic. As soon as you walked into a classroom there was no doubt as the the political leanings of whichever teacher occupied that classroom. The only way I can describe it is to say that progressive social justice activists have colonized the school and marked their territory.
A woman in a mask (who was in charge) got up and read a number of land acknowledgements before acknowledging the contribution of indigenous people to ways of knowing. Standard leftist land acknowledgement boilerplate. Additionally, every interaction was done in the style of HR style professionalism mixed with progressive leftist coded gentle parenting.
I don’t think this is exaggerated at all. It also reinforces my conviction that President Trump’s mission of disassembling the culture of woke and Leftist indoctrination in the schools, universities, news media and corporations is the most important aspect of his agenda, yes, even more than “affordability.”
But if he doesn’t deal with that, he won’t have a prayer of saving the nation from the other. Fuentes and the Groypers are, naturally, already being represented in the Axis media as the core of MAGA (they are all Nazis, you know!) rather than an outlying cult.
____________
Pointer: Bayou Renaissance Man
Ethics Alarms 
There is no moral differences between Groypers and Antifa.
The only practical difference is Antifa has support among academic, media, and entertainment elites.
Yup.
Michael T. Ejercito wrote, “There is no moral differences between Groypers and Antifa.”
I’m not justifying anything by making this point; but I think your statement is verifiably false. Antifa has shown by it’s morally bankrupt actions that it is focused on social anarchy and open violence against anyone they oppose, I haven’t seen the same from Groypers, yet. Have I missed the Groypers social anarchy and violent actions in the news, you’d think that the left leaning media would be plastering it all over the place to justify their pure hate of all things conservative.
A far as I can tell, there IS a moral difference between the two groups.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
They are both ethically and morally bankrupt. One embraces violence, the other Orwellian history and facts. Difference in specifics not in corruption. Both based on hate and a desire to subjugate other groups and opinions.
Jack wrote, “They are both ethically and morally bankrupt.”
I’m not disputing that point at all, I’m disputing the statement that There is no moral differences between Groypers and Antifa” and unless someone can show me otherwise, I think I reasonably supported my argument that there are moral differences between the two groups.
Jack wrote, “One embraces violence, the other Orwellian history and facts.”
There IS a moral difference between these two things, one is an action the other is a voiced opinion aka free speech.
Jack wrote, “Difference in specifics not in corruption. Both based on hate and a desire to subjugate other groups and opinions.”
Forgive me, but are you implying that actual violent actions is to be considered equivalent to words?
The political left has been using twisted bastardized equivalent comparison tactics for years to justify their hate and I am opposed to those kind of false equivalencies.
Free speech, whether we like the opinions voiced or not, is speech NOT an action and the two cannot be considered morally equivalent, at least not in my book.
Well, there was some talk that the Groypers might have been behind the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
I don’t give that much credence, because I don’t give much credence to a lot of stuff I see online.
But, if it is true, that would be significant.
-Jut
JutGory wrote, “Well, there was some talk that the Groypers might have been behind the assassination of Charlie Kirk.”
That would contradict all the known evidence that I’ve seen or heard about.
JutGory wrote, “I don’t give that much credence, because I don’t give much credence to a lot of stuff I see online.”
Justifiable skepticism.
JutGory wrote, “But, if it is true, that would be significant.”
True dat.
I think the question about who is more wrong Antifa or Groypers has surreal qualities. They are both very wrong. The only antidote against wrong ideologies is the truth.
However, During the Weimar Republic the Nazi’s and the Communists were duking it out in the streets of Germany. Both bore responsibility for the sick political climate of the Weimar Republic.
But once Hitler was in power, and World War II started choices had to be made. And the correct choice at the time was to ally with Stalin to defeat Hitler. But during the Cold War we threated Communism as the main threat, until the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.
I see the hard left as an enemy, but at this moment we should not see the extreme right as an ally, but as a temptation and a threat that undercuts and soils the image of the MAGA movement and the GOP.
Whataboutism, or “They’re Just as Bad“
Another word for whataboutism is precedent?
Just yesterday I first ran across the term, “gentle parenting.” The article about it was unreadable. Obviously, it’s a thing. Sheesh.
“Just yesterday I first ran across the term, ‘gentle parenting.’ The article about it was unreadable. Obviously, it’s a thing. Sheesh.”
The results of this phuque-witted approach are rolling in with the tide; to wit:
Mamdani Momentum Inspires UW-Madison Candidate For (Madison, WI) City Council
MONEY QUOTE: (U.W. sophomore/candidate Bobby Gronert) “We have witnessed history for the American left, (t)he victory of Zohran Mamdani proves what all of us know here — that people are sick and tired of the Democratic Party.”
While I can’t argue that, it gets worse
Gronert and his campaign manager/sophomore classmate, hooked up in an “Intro to Marx” class.
To borrow a phrase: “What’s Wrong With These People?”
These clueless morons should be…um…allowed to intern in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Palestine, etc. for a spell…to get the lay of the land.
PWS
A few years ago, much to my horror, I found out Bernie Sanders had been a guest lecturer in political science at my college. They are everywhere.
“I found out Bernie Sanders had been a guest lecturer in political science at my college.”
Was that before, or after, he got kicked out of the Hippie Commune for being a LAZY $#!t…?
PWS
Spring semester, 1990.
Huffington Post Publishes Gilbert Essay on Bernie Sanders – News – Hamilton College
Hilarious article about the commune. Our now former son-in-law’s mother is unable to advise him of the identity of his father as he was conceived while she lived in a commune back east. Oy vey.
I did not know about Groypers until they were fingered by the hard left (including Jimmy Kimmel) as behind the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Now it appears that Nick Fuentes has five million followers at Rumble. In other words, this phenomenon is much bigger than many people think. But maybe we should not immediately draw the conclusion that all these subscribers agree with Nick Fuentes; many of these listen to him due to the shock value of what he says, similar to Millennials listening to shock jocks like Howard Stern, Opie and Anthony, Don Imus. (Which is not to say that Howard Stern is like Nick Fuentes…) Another factor is youthful rebellion against authorities by denying and lampooning their values; why not turning the DEI teachings on their head by accepting identity politics but with the proviso that whites are not the fault of everything (according to DEI doctrine) but that whites are indeed superior?
The attraction of young men to extreme thoughts and expression coincides with social issues, namely that a lot of young men have trouble with getting traction in education, the labor market, the dating market, and the housing market. They also feel disrespected due to all the negative messaging they received in education (“toxic masculinity”), and discrimination in college admissions.
The conservatives do not have a unified message and strategy yet about Groyper issue. The problem recently raised its head at a GOP chatroom where racist and antisemitic messages where exchanged. According to Emily Jashinsky (see videoclip below) the GOP has handled this issue internally by expelling the involved from the GOP.
The question then becomes whether this is an isolated incident in the GOP; some have estimated are that about 30 percent of the GOP in the young age category subscribes to ideas typical to Groyper ideology. Emily Jashinsky (see videoclip below) contests these numbers however.
Part of the problem is that the left has accused the right of racism, antisemitism, fascism, and bigotry for decades, and the Democrats have electorally benefitted from this. These accusations have led (and still lead) to a climate of violence against conservatives, up to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, plus attempts to cancel and disrupt conservative events such as this week at a TPUSA event at UC Berkeley.
Conservatives have by now figured out that arguing about racism with the left is futile; admitting to racism in their midst is even more damaging as this would be a voluntary validation of the narrative of the left. So the new tactic is to just ignore the left anytime the issue of race is brought up, just shrug and say “Whatever”. Matt Walsh is a good example of this approach; he also is a proponent of “No enemies to the right, only enemies of the left” after the Charlie Kirk assassination and the election of Jay Jones to AG in Virginia. Aesop has a fable “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”; what we see is the conclusion of of he fable were the wolf makes his entry and is being ignored, out of refusal to continue giving credence to the boy’s false warnings. That is what I think we see happening here. Also personal friendships with Tucker Carlson explain why some of the conservative influencers were not on their A-game regarding this issue (Megyn Kelly, Matt Walsh).
So what is the way forward for the GOP? Part of this need to consist of truthful and disciplined messaging at the appropriate time, backed up by party discipline. Some disciple can be done in silence such as against those involved in antisemitic messaging in group chats.
Another part is policy, and I think that an economic policy that gives perspective to young people to pursue the American dream should be a very high priority. Young people who have perspective are less attracted to radical ideas.
From his wiki page, he is twenty-seven which is super young, and in my opinion, not worth giving much deference to. He has an associate’s degree from an Illinois junior college. Which either means he’s not had much education beyond high school, which may, or may not, be a good thing. He also appears to be a guy who is not too happy with himself or his situation. According to the wiki page, “Fuentes has said that ‘the only really straight heterosexual position is to be an asexual incel’, as ‘having sex with women is gay.'” Sounds like a closeted gay guy to me, or a character out of “Springtime for Hitler in Germany.” Bottom line, I’m having a hard time taking him very seriously.
Fuentes was caught a year ago streaming gay porn, and he blamed Israeli hackers.
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni64598347/
I believe this guy does not deserve the attention, and I was very surprised that Tucker Carlson invited him for an interview. Now I know that Nick Fuentes has five million followers at Rumble and one million followers at X I understand that he is getting interviews. However Tucker Carson should have given him a very critical examination like he did with Ted Cruz.
Hundred years ago some obscure painter from Austria started spouting all sort of nonsense. He was not taken serious enough either at that time, as his Beer Hall Putsch was an abject failure.
So I think we should take this Groyper phenomenon extremely serious, as Nick Fuentes’s message resonates with too many young men.
Yes, Cees, Hitler being discounted or ignored by Jewish and non-Jewish Germans alike for too long came to my mind as I was dismissing Fuentes.
Why was Hiterl discounted or ignored?
Followers can be very misleading, as a metric. A more useful metric is to compare the ratio of views per video to followers. Fuentes has over five million followers on Rumble, but averages a couple thousand views per video. His most popular video is just north of six thousand views. The average channel can expect to have a couple percent of its subscribers to watch that channel’s videos. For Fuentes, we should expect 50,000 to 150,000 views per video, if his channel subscribers are all humans. We don’t see that. Given his view numbers, roughly 200,000 to 300,000 of those subscribers are humans. The rest are bot accounts used to boost subscription numbers. Fuentes is not nearly as popular online as he wishes people to believe. That’s not to say he should be ignored; it is interesting that he’s been much more visible in the mainstream, after being out in the political wilderness. Before this interview, his most prominent appearance was with Destiny, a left leaning political livestreamer.
“Fuentes and the Groypers are, naturally, already being represented in the Axis media as the core of MAGA (they are all Nazis, you know!) rather than an outlying cult.”
Well, yeah, but that works both ways. Political parties are always trying to tie their opponents to “their” worst extremes. The Republicans are doing the same thing with Mandami and the Democratic Socialists.
The Republicans are closer to the truth, but the Democrats are unapologetically dishonest and hypocritical about everything. Truth to tell, that’s why the Republicans will eventually lose — the Democrats understand that there are no consequences for no holds barred hatred, lies, fabrications, fraud and libel. Tying Republicans to antisemitism via they Groyper cult is just another way of keeping the Jews in the fold by using the “them too!” excuse. It will probably work, too.
With the dishonest media amplifying the Democrat’s nonsense and blaming Republicans for daring to notice, it’s hard to see how this unethical dissimulation will wind up hurting them. Ultimately, I have very little faith in the intellectual capacity of the average American when it comes to politics.
Here is an article by Rod Dreher referred to by the Emily Jashinsky clip I previously shared on this thread:
https://roddreher.substack.com/p/what-i-saw-and-heard-in-washington
The article is long and meandering, but here is a long quote to get people interested:
“The claim that I first floated in this space last week, quoting a DC insider who said that in his estimation, “between 30 and 40 percent” of the Zoomers who work in official Republican Washington are fans of Nick Fuentes — that’s true. Was confirmed multiple times by Zoomers who live in that world.
If you think being Christian is some kind of vaccination against anti-Semitism, you’re wrong. Even young Christians — especially trad Catholics, I learned — are neck-deep in anti-Semitism. They even use it as a litmus test of who can and can’t join their informal social groups.
Not every DC Zoomercon who identifies with Fuentes agrees with everything he says, or the way he says it. What they like most of all is his rage, and willingness to violate taboos. I asked one astute Zoomer what the Groypers actually wanted (meaning, what were their demands). He said, “They don’t have any. They just want to tear everything down.”
Then he went on to explain in calm, rational detail why his generation is so utterly screwed. The problems are mostly economic and material, in his view (and this is something echoed by other conversations). They don’t have good career prospects, they’ll probably never be able to buy a home, many are heavily indebted with student loans that they were advised by authorities to take out, and the idea that they are likely to marry and start families seems increasingly remote.
Moreover, they grew up in a country that had lost its common culture. Many of these young men are fatherless. Most of them spent their youths being told that as whites, and especially as white males, they are what’s wrong with the world. Their own speech was policed with Stasi-like ruthlessness for racism and bigotry, while people on the Left routinely slandered whites, males, Christians, and heterosexuals — and were even rewarded for it.
F—k that, seems to be the reaction now. Fuentes is a living, breathing illustration of what Hannah Arendt meant when she spoke of people willing to revel in transgression such that they tear down the pillars of civilization, just for the fun of seeing those who had been gatekept away breaching containment.”
Both the Communists and the Nazis recruited from these kind of people.
been cozying up to Hitler apologists, Holocuast-deniers, anti-Semites and white supremacists because, as usual, he’s decided that its where the clicks and “likes” lie
Or he’s also a racist.
a strong case that the movement is a rejection, spurred by panic…
I believe it mostly has to do with Trump normalizing this type of thinking. And ya know, he was actually at the White House. Of course Trump isn’t at fault for that at all (as usual)
I also love how this blog comment section is essentially the same 5 people talking to themselves. Remember tgt and Charles? Ah those were the days. Now Old Bill responds to himself.
Nothing is stopping you from commenting, or indeed anyone.
Let’s see: CEES, Steve-O, Steve W., Old Bill, Holly A., Matthew B., Glenn Logan, Cornelius, John Paul, Jdkazoo, Dwayne Zechman, JutGory, Chris Marschner, Joel Mundt, Tim Levier, Ejercito, E.C, A.M., Davel, Diego Garcia, Michael West, Andrew Nelson….
DAMN! You’re right! Just 5 commenters! And they can’t count, either…
Oops. Forgot CD-Patriot. That makes SIX….
Heh!
PWS
What elementary school has a band?
Good question. Apparently that one. Note: when I mention anecdotes involving The Georgetown University Gilbert and Sullivan Society, which are legion, one could fairly ask, “What law school has a student theater organization?” Only one! Only one…
Ugh, Sorry, Willem, missed you wile naming the “five” EA commenters last night…
I don’t always comment (slacking recently), and to be fair, the one above was more of a non-sequitur of a question. I do nearly always read the posts and comments, if nothing else for the selfish reason that I tend to learn something in the process.
St. Michael the Archangel in Miami, Florida had one! As did the two other parochial schools Mr. Krug taught band at during the day and played trumpet in clubs at night. I played trumpet. We played Sousa Marches. We played the Star-Spangled Banner for all school flag raising and then played a march for the assembled classes as they returned to their classrooms. We gave concerts in the courtyard that was surrounded by the school building. Boy it was fun. And we sounded good. But who knows, maybe we were terrible.
Our granddaughter played in her elementary school orchestra. Strings are difficult. During a concert, the instructor/leader told the parents if they didn’t quiet down, he’d have the orchestra play a piece a second time.
Around here, they don’t do orchestra until middle school. Both daughters played strings, and were pretty good…older one battling back and forth for first violin in high school, and the younger was cello in their string quartet. Hopefully, the violin will find its way into the hands of one of the granddaughters.
Isn’t it funny that when likeminded conservatives find a place to enjoy each other’s company it’s a toxic echo chamber. But when likeminded lefties talk among themselves it’s … the mainstream, truth telling media! Safe spaces for me, but not for thee!