An awful event that could have been avoided in many ways if even one of the key players had just behaved responsibly and ethically, or knew what behaving responsibly and ethically is…
Bert Atienza, 77, was shopping at Walmart with his wife after church a week ago when store a 17-year-old store employee rushed down the aisle narrowly missing Josephine Atienza with a cart. Bert sharply admonished the young woman, saying, “You almost hit my wife with your heavy cart, and you did not even say excuse me or apologize to her,” according to his wife in interviews after the event. The African- American staffer argued with him briefly and then tossed a can at the couple as they walked away. Minutes later Travis White and Erika Mitchell attacked Bert as their daughter, the reckless employee, watched according to store surveillance video. [Note: Accounts say they “allegedly” attacked him. It it’s on video, it happened, unless the claim is that the video is a “deep fake.” I hate that reflex news media characterization. (‘John Wilkes Booth allegedly shot Abraham Lincoln in Ford’s Theater in front of hundreds of witnesses…’) Even the attorney for White and Mitchell doesn’t dispute the attack].
The two parents shoved Atienza from the back, one punched him in the face, then they pushed him into the shelving unit. After he fell to the ground, as one of the attackers kicked him. “While he’s on the floor, they’re still kicking him and I told them stop. My husband has heart problems,” Josephine said.
Oh! We’re sorry, if we knew the 77-year-old man had heart problems, we never would have attacked him!
Bert Atienza lost consciousness before help arrived and he was rushed to a hospital where he died the next day. White and Mitchell were arrested days later and charged with second-degree murder. Their daughter (described as “no longer employed by Walmart”—ya think?) has also been charged with assault and battery, aggravated malicious wounding and conspiracy to commit a felony. Her name has not been released to the press because she is a minor.
Well! What a nice story! Let’s see..
Wow, this is what a segment of our society thinks is acceptable behavior?
I wonder what all the race baiters would have done if the man that was attacked had justifiably pulled a legally concealed pistol, shot and killed all the attackers just before he lost consciousness and died, and now everyone directly involved is dead; ironic karma.
Am I wrong to think that there’s at least some civil liability with WalMart, perhaps limited to the single store? Someone has to be responsible for the employee’s behavior besides the employee herself. She probably demonstrated that she isn’t sugar & spice & everything nice while she was in training but WalMart let her loose on unsuspecting customers anyway.
Oh, absolutely. Big law suit for sure.
Jack, you really covered all the bases. Two points:
PS – our two youngest sons share the same name ….. cue the Newhart Show
Third point:
The aggrieved customers should have talked with a manager, as it is his/her job to reprimand and train the employee, not theirs.
I would have done what the dead guy did. After the employee refused to apologize, THEN I would have reported her. It’s ethical to give a teen the change to learn and make amends without getting her fired, no?
Of course.
Every now and then, I am reminded why I never shop at a Walmart. They’re bad for their suppliers, employees, customers, and their communities. Some shoppers just can’t look past the low price tag to ask “how do they accomplish this?”
Jack Marshall wrote (in part) in the original post:
>>Part B. Gee, where to begin? 1) You don’t attack strangers in a store. 2) You don’t
>> attack seniors in a store. 3) You don’t attack and beat up people because your
>>teen-age daughter tells you to. What kind of culture did these two ooze out of?
>>There is no justification for this. Have they heard of words? Conversation? Civil discussion?
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It’s a sad story. One man man dead, another man almost certainly going to prison, a big lawsuit likely–all because of some words exchanged and the actions set in motion by the teen-age employee.
I couldn’t help but think of one of Marc Mac Young’s books, _Beyond the picket fence_, in which he discusses the anthropological difference between “digntiy cultures” and “honor cultures.” One of the favorable reviewers at amazon.com says enough about those two cultures, I won’t repeat it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1987700880?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
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The basic reality is that it’s not hard to get yourself hurt or killed by stumbling into an argument with the wrong person. The “honor culture” is more prevalent among lower class Black Americans, and also among Southerners in the US more generally. It’s not the culture I grew up in…but it’s around. Some people carry it around in their heads wherever they go.
The “honor culture” is not limited to lower class Blacks, or to Southerners. In the USA it’s often traced to the “Borderers” from the Scottish border region who came to settle the Appalachians and the Upland South.
Tim Larkin, who has a self-defense presence online, has one video where he analyzes a shooting in a big box parking lot over a parking space. His comment at 08:20 on the video is
“I have a policy where I treat everyone like they are six seconds away from a shooting spree.”
Thanks for reading,
charles w abbott
rochester NY
“Dignity cultures” and “honor cultures” is a useful distinction, and one I had never encountered before.
Point the First:
It’s a useful distinction. While thinking about this incident and what to write in response, the book _The code of the street_ by the sociologist Elijah Anderson kept coming to mind.
One theme (in the book or discussion) was that the “Honor Culture” was more common in the inner cities of the USA. Not everyone in those neighborhoods actually embraced it or considered it sensible or good, but children were schooled by their older relatives to remember that many neighbors oriented themselves by the system.
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Point the Second:
Somewhere, likely in a book by Stephen Pinker, I recall reading the assertion that a substantial percentage of homicides in the USA end up being explained as “altercation of unknown origin.” The general point was that deadly incidents, especially between two men, can emerge from trivial disputes and perceived insults.
“Altercation of unknown origin” may be a residual category after excluding causes such as robbery, domestic fights and romantic jealousies, financial disputes over debts or business deals, etc.
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Point the Third:
In Weberian Sociology, the State seeks to hold a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, removing the 0use of force from aggrieved private parties.
At the extremes, the diagnostic question for which system you live in is this.
Q: When you are robbed in broad daylight, who do you go to for redress? To the police, or to your cousins?
A good (though depressing) read might be the youthful memoir of Yugoslav writer Milovan Djilas who grew up in Montenegro early in the 20th century. _Land without justice_ is the cheery title.
Djilas was imprisoned under the Yugoslav monarchy between the wars, later under Tito after falling out of favor with TIto. A good writer. His best known book in English is probably _The New Class_, which led to his falling out with Tito and was widely published in the West.
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Point the Fourth:
Jack, did you grow up in Massachussetts? Maybe I’m just confused about your upbringing. Massachusetts would be a pinnacle of “Dignity Culture.”
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Point the Fifth:
Extra reading from a 20 year old article in Rochester’s free monthly newspaper, an interview with sociologist John Klofas.
https://www.roccitymag.com/news-opinion/rochester-made-for-murder-2132212/
Thanks for reading!
charles w abbott
rochester NY
Was the daughter still working in the same area the couple were in? Did she lead her parents to the couple? If they went to find the couple, then that would indicate to me that they intended to attack them. They don’t need to find them to know their daughter is safe.
“Some”. The punishment for kicking someone who is on the ground should be higher than kicking someone who is standing. It’s beyond anything I understand that someone would kick a prone person unless they were fighting for survival. Certainly not because of words.
I have some critical notes / questions here?
This goes beyond the crime. The race-baiting, the presumed racism, the sick African American culture and it’s refusal to reject unmarried parenthood, the under-staffing (and incompetent staffing) that is now typical…not all crimes are ethics train wrecks and not all ethics train wrecks are crimes. But this…
But this…is much bigger than a simple trainwreck.
I see many YouTube videos in my feed that deal with the issue of “black fatigue” about dysfunctional behavior by predominantly blacks, with examples of such behavior in restaurants, airplanes (often Spirit Airlines), cruises (Carnival Cruise), street takeovers. Most of the videos I see are from black influencers; many white influencers are still careful to touch this taboo topic except Matt Walsh, Lily Gaddis who have become sufficiently immunized against accusations of racism.
Then there was of course the murder of Iryna Zarutska by a crazy n****r, who is now found to be incompetent to stand trial. This murder triggered a discussion about crime statistics indicating that blacks commit a majority of violent crime while only being 13% of the population.
The first thing we need to do is to name the problem, without respect for all the taboos we have created since the Civil Right Struggle. It is time to get over our fear of being called “racist” as that word has lost all meaning. The black community needs to assume ownership of this problem, which is at heart a spiritual problem.
I would not blame employers who are hesitant to hire people from certain backgrounds. Certain employers of East Asian ancestry do not post job openings, but fill these based on referrals by trusted relations (family, friends, church and ethic community) and that usually works out well as the person who made the referral looses face if the hire does not work out. I do not see this hiring practice as unethical but as wise; until the Civil Rights Act this practice was also fully protected by the freedom of association clause in the First Amendment.
Regarding Walmart’s hiring this person, I’m less inclined to let them off the hook. A post here way back about a bad 911 dispatcher (unfortunately I couldn’t find it again) prompted somebody to comment that you want a certain kind of person in customer service. They need to enjoy working with people, and show an eagerness to help, and that’s not something you can fake in an interview, at least not with a competent interviewer. In all the job interviews I’ve had they’ve asked me about situations I’ve been in and how I’ve handled them, what would I do in this scenario or that scenario. My observation has been with people like the rotten employee and her parents is they don’t even realize they need to check themselves; they take for granted they’re always right and the world just needs to bend to their will. All you have to do is get them talking about themselves and check their social media to see what kind of attitude they have.
We need to break this cycle of uppityness the perceived slights and disproportionate responses – make Billy Clubbing and Fear of The Law – paramount that if this subset of society that is a minority but the majority of criminal convictions cannot function then they need to be forcibly reminded of where the EBT, Snap & Sect 8 comes from.
I am confused by the facts. The man yells at the 17 years old employee, they argue, and she “chucks” a can at the man. She somehow had time to call her patents to tell them about the altercation. They, within minutes, descend on the store, find the man, argue with him, and then proceed to beat him.
1. What did the man say to their daughter? I would bet they shopper is either from Latin American or Philippine descent, based on his name and appearance. Did he call her the word that cannot be spoken? Did he use other racial epithets? Why did what he said to her upset her so badly she needed her parents’ reinforcement?
2. Were the loving, protective, honorable parents already in the store? Why were they so angry? Why did they feel they needed to come to their daughter’s rescue? What was the exchange between these model parents and the shopper? Did the shopper reiterate his “racist/racialist” comments to dear ol’ dad, whereupon Ward Cleaver felt it necessary to pummel the shopper?
3. Where were the other shoppers? Why didn’t they got involved? The video is fairly long, not some simple shove into the vegetable aisle shelf. Was it, “Forget it. I am not getting involved” or “That old guy had it coming to him”?
4. Did Walmart have any idea they hired this cretin? Yeah, they are gonna be liable for negligent hiring, training, and supervision. Their defense will probably be, “you know, we have a strict policy prohibiting employees calling their stupid parents because a shopper says something mean or insulting to employees. This girl clearly broke the rules and violated our policy and has been terminated. We do have a sale on slightly dented soup cans on aisle 4B.”
Truly strange story.
jvb
You’d expect that throwing a can at a customer would be enough of a reason for a complaint to be filed against her and possibly end with her being fired. Even if you aren’t in a specifically “customer service” role, being able to control your temper and not give into impulses is part of any job, especially if you are in a public-facing area.
As for her parents – sheesh, I seen and met some overprotective parents in my time, but to beat someone up over something like this is beyond reason. I hope the whiny daughter feels “better” knowing that she was part of the reason that a person died and her parent (father?) will end up in jail.
Know when to just shake it off and move on, is my experience from many years in the retail space.
“sheesh, I seen and met some overprotective parents in my time, but to beat someone up over something like this is beyond reason.”
This type of behavior is not a rare occurrence in the 77 Square Miles Surrounded By A Sea Of Reality, and the…um…participants are grossly over-represented by one (1) demographic group.
PWS