Alcoholics Anonymous and Ethics

/ Jack Marshall

With all the alcoholics in my life, and there are and have been many (some of whom I undoubtedly never knew qualified), today was the first time I ever actually attended a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. Indeed, before yesterday I didn’t know I could attend. Many groups have periodic “open” meetings, however, to which friends and family members of alcoholics as well as “anyone interested in learning about alcoholism” are invited. I know a lot about alcoholism, learned the hard way. Now I know more. More important than that, I realize that Alcoholics Anonymous has a great deal to teach everyone…not just about alcoholism, but about ethics.

Every day in America, nearly every hour of the day, thousands upon thousands of informal Alcoholics Anonymous groups meet for an hour in church halls, school cafeterias and every other meeting place imaginable. Of the more than 12 million estimated sufferers of alcoholism, approximately 5 million attend at least one meeting a year, with close to two million attending regularly. As in the group I attended, late in the afternoon on Super Sunday, they are as demographically diverse as America: young and old; all races and creeds; professionals, blue collar and unemployed; rich and poor; male and female, single and married, gay and straight. They share a need for support and understanding as they battle one of the most pernicious and destructive of diseases, and also something else: caring. Everybody listens, everybody empathizes, everybody cares….even though they are relative strangers, and even though every meeting brings a slightly different group.

It is remarkable, and it is inspiring.

The group talks about how the stresses of life are the triggers that can destroy sobriety, and with it health, families, careers, and lives. “Life isn’t long enough for all the misery in it, ” one cheerful elderly man said. Being angry, lonely, tired, frustrated, aggravated, hurt, grieving, frightened…all of these feelings and more can cause a dreaded relapse—-the same conditions, not coincidentally, that lead to good people doing unethical things. The solution, along with following A.A. founder Bill Wilson’s iconic Twelve Steps, is an ethics potpourri: respect, caring, mutual support, selflessness, empathy, humility, responsibility, diligence, patience, accountability, courage, and personal growth. Caring most of all; the members all recognize part of themselves in every sufferer, and in helping the others, know that they are helping themselves as well.

As I sat in the hall, listening to the funny, wise, sometimes heartbreaking stories of the alcoholics, some sober for months and years, some only for a day or two, I was stunned by how clearly that small room with folding chairs was a microcosm of a healthy and ethical society. Ethics, after all, is only learned conduct that we know will make existence better for everyone if we can embrace it, and in making a better world for the rest, we make a better life for ourselves. I thought about how powerful the spirit, compassion and determination to succeed as a group—Number One in the A.A. “traditions” is “Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity”—could be if it could be applied to living a more honest, selfless, fair and kind life, and actively helping our friends and neighbors do the same. People are driven to A.A. by desperation, to save lives and marriages and jobs when all else may have failed, and they often discover better ways to live, love and treat others as well as new resources to conquer their addiction. The A.A. method and spirit would also work  as well, I believe, if the illnesses it was focused upon was habitual dishonesty, meanness, incivility, and greed. Experiencing an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting is to see how wonderfully caring and wise human beings can be, how devoted to a group’s well-being, when they are sufficiently motivated. If this much goodness and mutual respect can overcome alcoholism, it can overcome almost anything. Disrespectfulness? A snap. Untrustworthiness?

Piece of cake.

I urge everyone to find an open AA meeting in your community; there is probably one this week, less than ten minutes away. Spend an hour there for two important reasons, both supremely ethical. The first is to make a serious effort to educate yourself about alcoholics, what they endure, how widespread the disease is, and how wrong, cruelly wrong, the archaic notions of character flaws and weak wills are concerning those who suffer from it. These are not weak people, but rather loving and brave people, and someone very much like them is in your life, whether you realize it or not. You owe it to them not to be ignorant, but understanding, and empathetic.

The second reason is to see and hear what I did, and think about how the ways of Alcoholics Anonymous could lead the non-drinkers among us to more ethical lives.

Liars Anonymous? Cheaters Anonymous? Incivility Anonymous? Spineless Politicians Anonymous? Unethical Bastards Anonymous?

Don’t laugh. I’m thinking about them all.

70 thoughts on “Alcoholics Anonymous and Ethics”

  1. Many years ago I was hired for a week to interpret for deaf parents of an adult child in a program. It changed my life. Thank you for this post.

  2. People driven to AA by desperation do not like themselves very much, res ipsa loquitur. Many AA groups will tell the newcomer, “Let us love you until you can love yourself.”

    Working its program can help restore relationships, as well as individuals. There was a period of several years when my estranged, adult daughter would not even speak to me. But we kept working at it thru letters.

    I can never recall, without getting all teary, that wonderful day some years ago, when she phoned and said, “I feel like I got my Daddy back.”

    In 2 months I’ll have 30 years without a drink of the liquid narcotic. AA works, if you work it. Thanks, JM.

      • Thanks again, JM. One of my brothers has 28 years, and the other 33 years: it can run in families.

        You hear some funny stuff at AA meetings, for example: “I never did like beer much – thank God for vodka.”

        After one meeting, a visitor said, “Those people there are nuts. They all have a life-threatening disease, and they’re laughing their heads off.”

  3. I enjoyed reading the article. I read it a week after the fact. I to believe that “open” 12 Step mtg are good for anyone seeking and asking questions about the disease of alcoholism. I also would like to stress to anyone who has questions to seek one out. I’m going on 25 years in March and it was not a struggle once I surrendered to the problem and found my answer in a HP.
    I also suggest anyone who has a friend or relative with problems to seek out an Al-Anon Mtg. You’ll know if you have found a healthy one when you see how the longtimers or winners take a nagging newcomer and teach them gently about why they are really there.

  4. As a secular person I do not think that it is ethical that almost every sentence in AA Literature directed to the Secular person has a message that suggests a secular person will not become sober and even is fated to a Alcoholic death. That is a lie and unethical.

  5. I have a few very close friends in recovery and I’ve been to at least a hundred meetings. I have never left one without gaining new insight and a deeper connection to myself. There is most certainly power in numbers. AA is a living testimony to that. I know that any individual who walks into a meeting with an open mind will leave with a lighter heart. It’s the way of the program. While I don’t consider myself to be an alcoholic, I do choose to live an honest and balanced life as best as I know how. AA has definitely aided me in being more honest and open with myself and others. It teaches life skills and ethics that can benefit anyone of us. Not just the alcoholic who suffers. Thanks for the post!

  6. I am doing research for an ethics paper and came across your blog. First, thank you! I am a recovering alcoholic and have been for more than 13 years however all I have is today! I am actually sitting in a hotel room as we speak, doing my research, while my husband attends the area AA conference. Ironic? I think not! Thank you for your insight from your perspective. I owe so much to this program, as do many!

  7. Ummm…okay. So I guess all those stories about women being stalked, raped or even murdered by AA members are just rubbish. Try googling “Karla Brada” or “thirteenth stepping.” After all, these people are trying really hard to be altruistic, right? None of them could possibly be sociopaths…

  8. Most people that end up in AA are either sent there by judges or rehab programs unethically. It’s a first amendment violation as well as usually a scam, since rehabs have the appearance of medical treatment, charge a lot of money to medicaid and then mostly just ship people to free AA meetings and don’t even manage detox. The whole industry is plagued by the very fundamental ethical breach which is pretending that 12 religious ideas is ‘treatment’ for a ‘spiritual disease’ which can only be arrested by the 12-steps.

      • For many people it is the way to stay out of jail, keep their family, keep their job, or not end up in jails, in institutions, or dead. In many cases this is only because those families or courts have been told that forcing people into regular AA meetings or else ‘lovingly detaching’ is the only ethical thing to do and the only way that person will ever get better or stay better — By AA members who are following the 12-step tradition proselytizing to professionals and patients. Thus the rehab industry has a constant source of free word-of-mouth advertising, because AA meetings are training sessions for formulating a personal story of debauchery, disaster/miracle, and redemption.

        The 12-step rehab industry and the AA 501(c)3 are some of the most unethical organizations in the world. You can see ‘How it Works’ in a documentary called The Business of Recovery and The 13th Step. What is wrong? Well, AA seems to give its members the sense that if they don’t participate in and proselytize for and defend their little religious program, most ‘alcoholics’ will die; for one. There are many such simple flat out lies, such as the “rarely have we seen a person fail” lie. They also refuse to provide members with new scientific information about alcohol use or empirical data about what is normal. They do not have a sexual harassment policy and instead have unspoken traditions not only of “13th stepping” but also of blaming the victim for being upset. This blaming the victim dynamic is also very apparent in the rehab industry where when treatment fails (and it nearly always does, or worse) the client is told to either come back for another round or shut up because they obviously didn’t put enough into it.

        I could go on but I don’t need to.

        • Yeah, don’t, because you’re full of shit, to be blunt, as you showed in your initial post. 12 Step programs give hope, support and assistance in dealing with an incurable disease. I have a lot of experience with AA (though I have never personally been a member). It’s not for everyone, but it is still a godsend for millions, and your characterization is false. I don’t know if you had a bad experience or are a flack for a competitor. There is no “rarely have we seen a person fail” lie—AA and ALANON make it very clear that anyone can relapse any time. The point is that doing so isn’t “failure.” It’s the disease.

          I don’t know your motives, but this is the last anti-AA rant you get to post here. Got it: you have some issues with AA. Your characterization is absurd, however.

  9. There are so many people as brainwashed as you are regarding this most horrible “programme.” That you include this cult in a blog about “ethics” is just irony defined.

    Tom’s “characterization” above is spot on. You just can’t handle the truth. Ethics be damned!

    Oh and no one is buying that you are not a card carrying brainwashed disciple of the most dangerous cult religion of all time. You not only go to meetings, you have forced this BILLShit on vulnerable people who deserve better. Nice ethics! It’s NOT A DISEASE. Do your research!!

    There is ample and indisputable evidence that every single word of your advertisement for the 12 step cult is not only false but is the cult dogma at work.

    Since you seem to have a difficult time with the truth, enjoy this for your reading pleasure:
    https://12stepcultreligionexposed.wordpress.com/2016/08/31/how-religious-organizations-like-a-a-prey-on-your-sense-of-self-worth/

    Go with your “fake it till you never make it” god stepper. It’s all you’ve got.

    But wait! There’s more.
    https://12stepcultreligionexposed.wordpress.com/2016/08/29/rarely-have-we-seen-whats-wrong-with-a-a-s-literature-how-it-works/

    And it comes with a set of knives in the back!
    https://12stepcultreligionexposed.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/alcoholics-anonymous-destroys-self-esteem/

    • So how long have you been like this, and where does the furious antipathy against an entirely benign, support organization come from? I’m genuinely curious. Because what you write is nuts, there’s no other way to describe it.

      AA is not a cult, it’s not a religion, it does not require Christianity or a belief in God. It’s not even a business. It works for a lot of people and keeps them alive and functioning, prevents many suicides, and is a boon to sufferers of a disease that has no cure, and much stigma. It’s not for everyone, and as with everything else,there are fanatics, as well as individual groups that press the higher power thing too hard…so you find a group you like.

      Contrary to your blather, the physiological dependence on alcohol is a disease, and the medical model is well-supported by research. I’m not going to get into link battles with an idiot.12 Step programs are just an orderly and often useful way to try to gain control over one’s life when suffering from an addiction. That’s all.

      You and Tom can go away and carry a sign someplace else now.

  10. The crazy known as “12 Step Cult Religion Exposed” has been banned, I probably shouldn’t have allowed the first post, but I had never encountered the “AA is a Cult Religion From Hell” crowd before.

    This site isn’t for political rants or conspiracy theories, or links from nutty websites. Every representation about AA made by 12 Step was false, and this isn’t a billboard for lies.

    The banned comment read: “Thank you! How horrible! This dangerous cult religion is harmful for everyone, especially those who can think for themselves!” What is the matter with these people?

    • So far, this jerk has tried to post three more comments. This is the self-proving part of those I ban—they don’t have the decency to follow the rules, which is why they get banned in the first place. A comment may slip by, for which I apologize, but eventually these creep get tired and move on to harassing someone else.

  11. I’ve updated my name and would be happy to continue the discussion according to your reasonable standards (including calling you out on errors).

    It does seem like you’ve already decided that Anti-AA arguments are not going to be considered. That’s generally how cults work. You will find that “Anti-AA” is very willing to consider AA’s arguments, but not vice versa. In the words of a 1934 criticism of the Oxford Group called “Saints Run Mad”: “[we] would be only too glad to welcome the Group if certain teachings were explained so that they were acceptable to con­science and to intellectual honesty. I hope, but hardly expect, that such an answer will be made. In the absence of any such assurance the grave doubts and misgivings that now obtain must continue and increase.”

    If you are interested, I have a list of about 11 court cases setting precedent that AA is religious in nature and that coerced attendance is a violation of the Establishment Clause. I also have documents from the Department of Justice and the NYS Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse services stating that any provider using DoJ funds to indoctrinate religion is in violation.

    You state that AA does not require belief in God or Christianity, but the steps themselves, as well as the “Chapter to the Agnostic” in the Big Book, say directly or indirectly that a religious conversion is necessary to ensure sobriety. AA is an offshoot of the Oxford Group (which later name-changed to the “Moral Re-Armament” and then the “Initiatives of Change”) repurposed as a treatment for alcoholism.

    The book by Lance Dodes of Harvard entitled The Sober Truth documents how AA DOESN’T help a lot of people — up to 90% of the people who try it. He admits that if it helps some, that’s great. But he also points out that there is no evidence that AA works better than no treatment at all. Since it performs no better than a placebo, it can effectively be said to ‘not work’. Yet, it is the basis for the majority (80-90% of all rehab treatment in America) which is estimated to be a $35 billion dollar industry.

    It is also established through documented cases like Talbott, Straight Incorporated (a ‘tough love’ drug treatment program for children), Physicians’ Health Programs and EAP ‘sobriety contracts’ mandating AA attendance under threat of loss of licensure ( see disruptedphysician.com ), Oxford House-type sober homes (where the ‘manifestation of the disease’ — any drug use — can have you immediately evicted and homeless), and drug court programs, that AA’s excessive, extortionist, isolating, dehumanizing practices can induce feelings of entrapment, learned helplessness, defeat (‘admitting total defeat is the first step’) — and suicide.

    It is typical for AA members to respond that they have no control over judges, ‘two-hatting’ professionals, and hospitals, and yet they have very well developed systems of proselytizing to those targets to recruit new members. AA members in government positions are likely to simply delete arguments, complaints, evidence in order to protect the image of AA (and their own butts legally)

    The view alternative to the disease model is a behavioral one (It has recently been proposed to be thought of as a kind of ‘learning disorder’, more of a bad habit that based on NESARC, an epidemiological study of over 43,000 Americans, is common for the majority of people to experience and move past without any treatment or AA-style support group at all). Being informed, either based on specific cases of alcohol misuse or established patterns of dependence, that one has a ‘progressive, fatal, incurable disease’ — and that lifelong attendence in AA among people identifying primarily as addicts or alcoholics is really the only way — has predictably bad outcomes.

    I’m happy to provide links and more details about how these dynamics play out in state licensing and funding of the ‘treatment’ industry, regardless of any scientific evidence of success.

  12. I’m an Anti-AA activist and I found this article posted in one of my Anti-AA call to action groups.

    As a starting place, I disagree with pretty much every assertion that the author makes about AA in this article.

    AA is a culture that “blames the victim” and tries to teach people that they are “powerless” over their “defects of character” which often tends to make people drink themselves to death because after spending hours chanting that they are powerless over alcohol, they logically enough don’t feel they have the power to stop drinking.

    AA is also a culture that has endemic sexual exploitation, that is even treated as a kind of joke among members and is called “The 13th Step.”

    I’m even going to go so far as to say that in a lot ways AA functions like a religious cult. So rather than encouraging people to go, I would rather discourage it. There are also many more effective ways to control one’s drinking problems, such as SMART or HAMS. AA only has about a 5% success rate.

    I think one reason that AA has become such a standard is that it can look very good from a distance if one doesn’t fully understand its somewhat bizarre teachings and message that again revolve around “powerlessness” and a “higher power” and believing that if you are in pain it is your own fault or God’s will. From some angles these ideas will be true, but from others they will be pretty disgusting and that is the first step in truly understanding AA culture and ethics.

    • Any group effort can become a cult if individual members tend that way. Nothing about AA requires or prompts that. There iss no mystery about AA, and it is completely decentralized, so such conspsiracy theories make no sense. Nor does AA teach that the illness is a character flaw. 12 step programs work for many, not for all; that doesn’t make them useless or fraudulent. Nor am I remote from the organization and its processes as you falsely suggest.

      The modern AA has largely accepted medical research—your screed sounds like just came back from 1956. I don’t know what soured you on the organization, but slandering an entirely beneficent organization because you don’t agree with its methods is irresponsible and narcissistic conduct. AA has saved millions of lives, and continues to save lives and give hope every single day, for whatever reason. If it drives some people to religion, that’s still a terrific trade.

  13. You say you attended One AA meeting and now claim to be an expert in defending it and banning and blocking everybody who disagrees with you? And the name-calling! Is that ethical? Did you learn that from this lovely “Spiritual Group”?

    • I love comments like this. Read the Comments advisory. I reserve the right to call comments that are ignorant, biased or ethically obtuse ignorant, biased or ethically obtuse. Nor do I block those who disagree with me, but I do block those who misrepresent the blog and my commentary, like you, here.

      I attended one meeting because I am not an alcoholic. I have discussed AA extensively, for well over a decade, with those friends, acquaintances and fellow professionals who are, and I am well acquainted with the experiences of those who found support and value there, as well as those those who did not. Are you a militant atheist? Is that your problem? That’s the only thing I can imagine that would cause these vile and inflammatory attacks on a free support group that is a godsend (I used that word just for you) for those who appreciate and respond to it. I have studied the literature, I have researched the group’s origins and operations. Bill W. was one of the US’s great unsung heroes.

      You and your fellow AA-a-phobes obviously don’t know what you are talking about.

      Don’t bother coming back–any comment will be spammed. Comments are either substantive or enlightening: yours was neither, and you don’t get away with calling me unethical on my blog. I, however, can diagnose you as I see fit. That’s how it works. Bye.

  14. I see you’re getting some pretty crazy responses from people who seem to be perpetually furious that AA members find a solution to what’s killing them. Generally speaking they fall into just a couple of slots, but when they do fall there it’s where they remain. Few are able to exit.

    AA relies on practical spiritual principles for it’s underlayment. That riles up some insecure atheists as a violation of how they would like to view the world. Those alcoholics who are sure they’re about to get a handle on their drinking react badly to those who’ve found long term success in abstinence, and view it’s obvious logic as a personal threat. Some have found niche employment serving those who can not/will not stop and it’s unlikely they will surrender their income source. Another group are those who must see themselves and their self-harming actions as correct. For them to be correct then it’s a requirement for AA to be wrong, and they must force others to agree for validation.

    These are usually lonely individuals unable to function normally in society. They find a measure of fellowship in joint whining about AA members with others who are similarly isolated. The crazier among them cannot do that for long and are eventually rejected and banned from the little anti groups, but establish sub-groups that are then avoided by the less nuts antis.

    Facinating to occasionally observe how they handle each other, and how they assign the responsibility for the continual alcohol-related deaths among themselves to AA. Twisting logic has almost become an art form in this crowd.

    If all the (should be) committed antis were to pile on your article you would have to deal with less than 70 individuals. It’s a good thing for this world that relatively few people are this variety of nuts.

    • The ‘obvious logic’ of abstinence does not explain why AA and its business arm completely reject abstinence programs like SMART and Rational Recovery that have inherent claims against the powerlessness concept. Maybe it’s really all about AA, not alcohol, when it comes to AA.

      There is a president now of the Philippines who has granted permission to his citizens to kill ‘drug users’. Your last statement about ‘less than 70’ individuals committed to Anti-AA information (and you imply they should be committed as in institutionalized) gives me the sense that you either don’t know how many people in the world see clearly that AA is a cult, or you are keeping track of the ‘committed’ dissenters and want them out of your world.

      • Boy, was THAT a non-sequitur.

        Accusing any belief system of being a cult is just below-the-belt rhetoric and exposes the accuser without impugning the accused. AA does not “reject” abstinence; it simply acknowledges the established fact that alcoholism doesn’t go away, that abstainers relapse more often than not, and that life-long focus on the problem is essential to maintaining health.

        I don’t care how many there are. They are attacking a benign tool for combating the disease that works for millions of people, because the attackers have a different approach.

        • Really Jack? Accusing ANY belief system of being a cult is a problem rather than a reasonable argument about what is going on within some little closed system? AA is not a benign tool. It is a tool for the rehab industry. It is free advertisement for a $35 billion dollar industry. People ‘attacking’ AA are not bad people, crazy drunks, or the devil. They have paid (dearly) and prayed (sincerely) and people still died, in many cases.

          • So you want to argue about Moonies, or AA? The point is that any belief system can be attacked as a cult, and that attack is just name-calling without more than the belief to attack. Free advertising is another chaep shot. What is that product that attendees at meetings are supposedly being sold? There’s no AA seal of approval, diet plans or magic elixir.

            • Sure, any belief system can be attacked as a cult. When nobody does it, it’s not a problem. When people do it, that’s because the closed-mindedness IS a problem and people want to talk about it.

              In AA the only alternatives are ‘jails, institutions and death’. You can see that most people who complain about AA are accused of belonging in a mental institution or they are just mad at some judge who said ‘go to AA or jail’. This happened to me several times when I tried to speak out about my experience in therapy forcing me into AA. AA members said I deserved this treatment and probably was just upset about a DWI. I never have been arrested for a DWI. I attended AA because I heard that’s what I needed to do to be in a relationship. After a year in AA I sought professional help.

  16. AA and 12 Step programs in general- whether in treatment facilities or church basements, are all definitely cults of sickness, despair, hopelessness, powerlessness, disease, fear and unhealthy co-dependence. The majority of people I’ve encountered in 5 years, do preach the “I have an alcoholic mind,” “I’ll always be powerless” foolishness and do subscribe to the “chronic brain disease,” fictitious concept of addiction. They constantly whimper and whine about having a “diseased mind” regardless of the years or decades that have passed since their last drink. They strike me as being absolutely IN LOVE with their so called “disease.” It’s their “best friend.” They are like toddlers who, growing into adolescence, refuse to give up their security blankets and teddy bears.

    According to most of them, they are NOT responsible for any of the bad choices they’ve made in life. You see, it’s their “disease” that’s choosing for them. Like some big bad boogieman, this dark force does push-ups in the parking lot, stalks them 24 hours a day and grows stronger and stronger by the minute. So, they see themselves as perpetual victims who shouldn’t be held accountable for their own poor decisions and choices. This is pure BS!

    I’ve never seen and heard so many people celebrating-even lionizing- the childish belief in their own continued weakness, sickness and depravity even though they’ve stopped drinking [drugging] years – even decades before. Some [most] claim that they have a “diseased mind” and they are in many ways, worse [or as bad] off now, twenty years later, than they were when they were actively abusing alcohol.

    They even take a strange and perverse pride in this constant, continual moaning and blubbering about how their sickness and disease still plagues them in all of their affairs.

    The AA (12 step) Disease Model Doesn’t Work— It Even Does More Harm than Good. It sets people up for failure. It makes matters worse than they are. It stigmatizes people for life, and worst of all, it brutalizes and brainwashes the young.

    Just like other cults, AA asks you to renounce your own will and surrender to a generic “Higher Power”. Of course, lacking the ability to communicate with your higher power [as most people do], you are told to follow the commands of senior AA members. No one is allowed to talk about what goes on at the meetings outside of the meetings. Members are “anonymous” and are not supposed to reveal their own, or anyone else’s membership outside of the meetings/to non-members.

    Whereas self-examination can be empowering, AA takes the practice to an extreme level and asks its members to constantly humble themselves and admit their shortcomings, work on “character defects” perpetually, and to regularly confess to each other, constantly reliving their problems and thereby reinforcing a negative self-image. The only way to live with themselves is to keep confessing to the group, and keep trying to live the spiritual life prescribed by the program.

    Should a member attempt to live their spiritual or sober lifestyle on their own, without constant AA involvement, they’ll be belittled by the group as they attempt to detach, told that they’re on the verge of relapse, and that they will DIE if they don’t keep up their meeting attendance.

    Threats will be made, and rumors will be passed about any member who seems as if they’re growing away from the group. The solution they offer indoctrinates a troubled person with the belief that they can only stay sober one day at a time, and that the only thing which will keep them from drinking is their “Higher Power”, a call to their AA “sponsor”, or a trip to a meeting. Indeed, everything about the group breeds dependence on the group, and mortal fear of leaving the group.

    PS …. Addiction is not a spiritual problem. Indeed, saying that it is has caused a great deal of pain to many. Addiction is hard enough for people, without having to think they have shallow or tormented souls.

    • Mike, this is such a warped and distorted characterization of what AA is, does, and communicates that it’s a waste of time for me or anyone to argue with you. That’s not an analysis but a construct, and life’s too short to argue with people who have already constructed a tight, fact-repellent view of reality that bolsters their fantasies or agenda. It this is sincere, it might be fascinating to know what horrible personal disaster caused you to arrive at it, but I have promises to keep and sock drawers to organize. I’d recommend just devoting your attentions to subjects where you are not so fanatic and deluded, and allow the millions of people who find hope, support and guidance in AA to do so without your obsessions interfering. If you’re a drunk and AA doesn’t help, by all means, try something that does. It’s you’re not, then keep your conspiracy theory and prejudice to yourself.

  17. You’re delusional, Jack. A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. I understand your psychosis. Cult leaders will tell you can only be “saved” (or can only be successful) in their organization alone. No other organization has the truth, all others miss the mark. So it is not the belief system that decides your future, but it the belief system AND your membership with that particular group. If you really believe that leaving the group equals leaving God (or means you are leaving your only chance to succeed in life), then you will obey the cult leaders even when you disagree with them instead of risking being kicked out of the group.. Questioning the leaders or program will still be seen as a sign of rebellion and stupidity.

    • It’s pretty simple, Mick, for anyone willing to examine the facts. There are drunks, and there are alcoholics. I know both. The former can stop drinking if they want to, but don’t want to. AA can help those people, but just as any support group can help anyone with any problem. Alcoholics have a metabolic problem that is hereditary, and AA helps them more than anything else that has been discovered.

      The AMA isn’t a cult, and has decided that alcoholism meets the qualifications to be classified a disease. Nobody’s lobbying them. If a group using a “higher power” to help people to deal with an incurable disease works, great. Religion is fantasy, but it doesn’t kill people, and alcoholism does. I know so many alcoholics (and drunks), and it is your characterization of their relationship with the group that is delusional. Nor does AA tell members that nothing else will work. It tells them that AA works, and in may cases, it does.

      The study you cite is one more agenda-driven piece of dubious social science research, and is dangerous. Alcoholism leads to suicide far too often. Sufferers need coping skills, which the support group structure helps them learn, and they need hope. The group provides hope for many of them, just like religion does. Call it a placebo if you like; placebos work. As with fanatic opponents of religion, you are just trying to impose your disapproval of a life coping mechanism that works on people who benefit from it. Why would you do that?

      • Facts, Jack? How about some logic? I guess you don’t have any critical thinking skills. Your disease must be blocking that ability from your chronically sickened mind. With respect to alcoholism, it is beyond the grasp of logic for medical professionals to prescribe 12-step type meeting attendance as a remedy for an “incurable” medical ailment, not to mention a contradiction to the supposed nature of the problem. Medical professionals are admittedly incapable of helping drug addicts and alcoholics so they pass the buck to organizations outside of the medical community. But, because of recidivism rates and treatment failure, the buck is passed right back. Patients in search of help, pay, on average, over $18,000 to attend programs based on principals promulgated by 12 step groups. After an array of varying forms of “therapy” the patient is released with a prescription for lifelong attendance to AA or NA meetings.

        In treatment and 12 step groups the individual is told that they can only live “one day at a time.” Additionally, they are told that they should never be fooled into believing they can be cured, and if they don’t attend meetings they will inevitably fall prey to their “disease doing push-ups in the parking lot.” The disease, as described by 12 steppers, is all powerful; it is a separate entity and without meetings it will destroy them. But, with some thought one realizes that these ideas are oxymoronic. To point out the obvious, if someone is “powerless” they would, by definition, not be able to control themselves, not even one day at a time.

        • Point? A biased characterization isn’t an argument. Any general principles can be ridiculed and deconstructed by taking them literally. “Powerless” in context means “don’t get cocky, don’t assume you are in control, don’t under-estimate the power of the illness. Good advice, all. I’m an ethicist–I deal with Rules all day ling, and you cab do this with any of them. The equivalent is Restraint Bias, which reminds us that we are all corruptible, most of all when we are certain we can’t be corrupted.

          AA is a utilitarian solution to a problem. It’s not the only approach, but attacking it is irresponsible.

          I have no addictions whatsoever, and never have had any. In my most drink-sodden year, I probably drank less than a typical alcoholic drinks in a week. I may be the least addicted individual within 100 miles….never smoked, had pot, taken sleeping bills or speed, diet pills or pain killers, don’t gamble, don’t over-eat, don’t visit prostitutes. Nada. Zilch.

          I’m happy to work you through your anti-AA obsessions, but insult me again like that and you’ll be banned.

          • It concerns me, Jack, that as someone who “practiced criminal law in Massachusetts and organization law in the District of Columbia, and has led non-profit organizations devoted to education, public policy research, legal services and health”, that throughout this thread you have simply remained silent on the well-established topic of Establishment Clause violations (you apparently do not need to respond to that because you just do not accept the fact that people are forced into AA programs through the criminal justice system and mental health systems).

            If people were forced into AA, a member might argue, then it is an ‘outside issue’ and simply based on the well-deserved good reputation and public trust that people like you have in Alcoholics Anonymous and its magical ability to heal people. Alcoholics Anonymous cannot help it if everybody LOVES Alcoholics Anonymous and wants their friends, clients and parolees to go to meetings, work the steps and get a sponsor, right?

            There are even some AA members that acknowledge the Establishment Clause violations and tell complainers to go sue the judges or the mental health professionals, because AA has nothing to do with THAT. This is, though, an example of AA avoiding responsibility for its own policies and actions in not properly informing people about the Establishment Clause issues, even actively censoring information about those issues.

            Here’s a video showing how a writer for a recovery blog got into AA. She was forced to go to AA panels at Cedar Sinai against her will, and says that was how she got ‘into recovery’ in the first place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5dhKAY5NZA

            What is an ‘AA panel’? AA panels are presentations by AA groups called Hospitals and Institutions committees. http://www.lahic.org/forms.php

            http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bm-31.pdf Page 69 of the General Service Manual explains a bit about intentions to shape public opinion, keep ‘severe disagreements’ (such as the use of government funding) private, and use private ‘means of persuasion, which are often considerable’ to handle ‘tradition violators’ (It should be noted that people violating Traditions in ways that would need such correction, ie. not promoting AA in the media, are often doing so because they no longer consider themselves AA members and have no duty to protect AA).

            A look at the Cooperation with Professionals Workbook shows that there are very elaborate programmed efforts to promote AA, even while AA likes to suggest that they do no promotion and like their sobriety to speak for itself. http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/m-41i_CPCWorkbook.pdf

            Here is a notice to the New York State Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services (OASAS) regarding decisions by the Department of Justice about the use of government money from 2002: https://www.oasas.ny.gov/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm OASAS, though, continues to be an AA promotion government agency, funding, licensing and even running 12-step rehabs. http://notpowerless.com/oasas-12-step-rehabs/

            The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal has recently agreed to hear a similar case of undue influence. https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-news/against-the-religious-element-of-alcoholics-anonymous-437636

            • Hey, Jerk! I have an idea! Why don’t you do a little research on the blog before you accuse me of approving of conduct I have specifically pointed out as unethical? Forcing someone to attend AA meetings is useless, as in incompetent, coercive, a Due Process breach, an abuse of judicial power, and a misuse of AA, which is supposed to be ANONYMOUS< and planting unwilling participants among dedicated members is a threat to everyone there. I bet I came up with problems you never thought of! So tell you what—did I mention that you are a jerk?—why don't you find that post, then at the start of your next comment, apologize to me for your obnoxious and false start to this comment, and I'll decide then whether to ban you.

  19. Hi Jack,

    Please do a new post about your comment: “Forcing someone to attend AA meetings is useless, as in incompetent, coercive, a Due Process breach, an abuse of judicial power, and a misuse of AA, which is supposed to be ANONYMOUS< and planting unwilling participants among dedicated members is a threat to everyone there. "

    Do some research and then make a good substantial post about it. Thanks.

    Tom

  20. Counselorchick, now #6 on the all time commenting assholes list in Ethics Alarms history, snuck in another comment while I was working elsewhere and true to her pathological arrogance, added to her deficits here by mocking the fact that I cannot always keep unwanted participants in the discussions here off the blog immediately, for whatever reason. Of course, the non-assholes accept their banning as an innate privilege of the host, and don’t try to comment thereafter. On the other hand, the only commenters who are banned ARE assholes, so this is neither unusual nor surprising.

    It has been interesting to hear the rap of an alcohol counselor who trashes the only method that has consistently helped alcoholics manage their disease, in order to drum up business for herself. I didn’t realize such sociopathic individuals existed. Good to know, but they aren’t going to use this site to spread their disinformation.

    • UPDATE! CC crept back on the thread, raising her status on the jerk list to #5. You see, this is my establishment for discussing and clarifying ethics, not a public billboard for others to appropriate for their own agendas. This a seminar, not a public square. CC wants to use Ethics Alarms to undermine Alchoholics Anonymous and promote her own methods of addressing the disease…well, that’s not the topic of the post, nor the website. I ask a commenter who is obnoxious to desist, nicely, then not so nicely, then it’s curtains.

      Tom Gleason has the same hobby horse as CC, but he manages to ride it without using disrespect or mockery…and he’s running out of rope, again, because I am not offering this forum for anti-AA zealots..

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