I would write “The Ethicist,” but I’m a better ethicist than he is, so I’m asking you.
I have a friend, a neighbor, who has been very kind and caring since my wife died in 2024. She’s about 20 years younger than I am, divorced, and desperately lonely. She’s also brilliant, politically obsessed, and furious at the world. Spuds likes her two dogs, and we all go to the nearby dog park together whenever our schedules mesh. She checks on me when she hasn’t heard from me for a while (which is annoying but still considerate). She sends me food; she invited me to have Christmas dinner with her and her then-boyfriend last year.
She is also as Trump Deranged as anyone I know, which is saying a lot. Her progressive mania is extreme: on Facebook and other social media she goes from one stream of furious posts on the latest leftist cause to another. Currently she is determined to have the seven men accused of sexual assault in the Cornell mess tried, convicted, and if possible, castrated.
My friend, like so many people I know infected with woke hysteria and Trump Hate, confidently rants to me about her obsessions because she assumes that nobody she likes and views as intelligent could possibly have any opinions different from hers. I’ve written about this phenomenon before. I just let her do it, because she needs to talk, and eventually I get her to move on to another subject, make her laugh, or try to get a word in edgewise that has nothing to do with politics.
For me, this is a pure Julie Principle situation: she’s a good and generous person, she’s intelligent, she needs a friend, she’s a great Scrabble player, and as long as she doesn’t try to run my life (which she is always on the verge of attempting), I’ll accept her quirks and obsessions and concentrate on what’s admirable about her, which is a lot.
However, she excises anyone from her life who doesn’t conform to her political beliefs. She is estranged from her family and both of her children. She recently told me that she made a list and that I am one of just 17 people she feels comfortable talking to. Somehow, she has concluded that I have the same political beliefs she does, which means, among other things, that she has never googled me or done any research online. I have a rather large cyber-footprint, including Ethics Alarms, of course. I know, with near certainty, that she would be crushed if she learned about my positions on many of the issues she feels passionate about, including the Cornell 7. When a dinner date recently told her he had voted for Donald Trump, she got up and walked out of the restaurant.
I feel like I am deceiving my freind, and yet I also don’t believe political views are relevant to personal relationships unless they are the basis of those relationships. I have many more than 17 friends, and the idea of ending a relationship because someone doesn’t agree with me about, well, anything is alien to my being.
Heck, I even have friends who are Yankee fans.
Is the most ethical course to continue to allow her to think I meet her self-harming extreme standards she demands of friends, or to be transparent, let her know more about me and guarantee that she will be angry, disillusioned, and cancel me as she has so many others?
This is a true ethics conflict, with valid ethical justifications on both sides of the question. Kindness or honesty? Inflicting pain in the cause of transparency for its own sake? My friend is incapable of embracing the Julie Principle.
Now what?
Any idea what happened to my comment?
What comment? Nothing in spam, nothing in moderation.
Dammit – eaten by WordPress? It was a good one …
Yours are all good ones.
Rats, WordPress just ate one of mine too. I should have copied it before I clicked on submit like I do on other sites, now I’ve got to completely recreate it, arrrgh!
I hear you sister …
Reveal yourself. She just might snap out of it.
“You may be right, I may be crazy. But it just might be a lunatic you’re lookin’ for.”
If you’re lying to her or deceiving her to specifically hide who you are, then I don’t think you’re doing her any favors. There is a difference between keeping the peace and deception. I think that is what you’re going to have to decide.
You may need to examine your definition of identity. “Who I am” has nothing to do with politics or ideology. It has nothing to do with my religion, or lack of it. It has nothing to do with my many and disparate jobs, or my wide range of interests. I’ve been a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn and a king, and I was the same person all along. It’s nobody’s business but mine what my political alignments are, and if I choose to share them, that’s my choice, and I’m not hiding them or deceiving anyone if I decide I don’t care to share them. I am who I am, and what you see is what you get, it’s just not EVERYTHING you might get if the occasion demands it.
This perspective ought to bloom into its own post. So much of current viewpoint has adopted the opposite–that affiliation and preference define identity.
It sounds like you know what you want to do. Keep changing the subject when she brings up politics. She values your friendship. If she didn’t she’d push you until you agreed with her. She hasn’t discovered your online presence because she doesn’t want to know.
That’s life. 🙂
Thanks, Frank….
I wish I could advise you. One of these days… I hope…these folks will come out of the fog of their delusions, look at the collateral damage yhis has made in their relationships and wonder what they were thinking.
You are describing most of my oldest, dearest friends. I instantly delete their TDS-infused group texts, without comment. In person, I don’t agree or disagree with their in-person rants, and I change the subject as soon as possible to something we can all enjoy. Where (what they think of as) politics is concerned, they’re like religious fundamentalists, or people suffering from Tourette’s syndrome.
A woman who will walk out on a dinner date and excise friends and family from her life over ideology is more trouble than she’s worth. To a degree you are walking on eggshells to maintain your friendship, and sooner or later that will be exhausting. Those of us with leftist family and friends know to steer clear of politics and we can get along famously talking about other things. The difference is we all know what we’re doing and it takes very little effort. Furthermore, sooner or later something will slip into your conversation, shocking her and she will feel betrayed, angry and devastated that someone she thought is an ally is, in fact, an enemy.
“Those of us with leftist family and friends know to steer clear of politics and we can get along famously talking about other things“
Bravo India November Golf Oscar!
When they visited here two (2) years ago, Steve W. and YB noticed ours was the only house on the block without a Harris Walz sign; I’m surrounded by them.
A widowed neighbor in her mid-70s is Conservative (we’re fast friends) and is reluctant to let on, or even to put a sign in her yard.
My beliefs are no secret, it’s well-known that I lean Starboard, but I’ve cultivated great rapport with others by simply observing No Fly Zones.
The…um…targeted distribution of part of my eclectic, (arguably) World Class Organic Heirloom Tomato deserves mention….
PWS
I still don’t understand how people let one person – sure, he’s the President of the United States, but still… – have this much control over their everyday lives, their mental health, their relationships, and their overall well-being.
Donald Trump owns them in ways that President Biden (or even a President Harris, had there been one) could NEVER have controlled me. It’s almost cultish…wait, it IS cultish.
I’ve run that idea by a handful of Trump-deranged people and it’s as though they short-circuit. They’re not capable of unplugging the “Trump” from their brains.
It’s like an anti-cult cult. Normally, you join a cult to follow a leader and you cannot leave, but in this case, following the leader means being a part of a group that does and says the opposite of the leader who isn’t a member of the cult.
Sadly, you are probably in a no-win scenario, because she is probably not interested in who you truly are-and may not even know it.
You would probably say: you don’t particularly like Trump, think he has done harm to the fabric of the culture, but is hardly the worst President we have had (I forget where he landed on your scale).
If anything other than a full-throated condemnation of him is the only thing she will accept to make you not MAGA, then she is not interested in who you are, because she can’t distinguish you from millions of other people.
You could try leaning into your lawyering. I try not to deal in labels (pedophile, racist, etc.); those are the conclusion. In my field, you do not start with the conclusions; you start with the facts and draw a conclusion from there. So, what are the facts that support the conclusion that Trump is a pedophile? That question will not be answered except with the accusation that I am MAGA.
But, that is how I approach most things. And, let me tell you, it is helpful for parenting. Law School certainly trained me to mediate disputes between Sari and Baby Jack-Jack.
I try not to make decisions quickly, and always deliberately. People I know get that. Others don’t care; they think there is nothing to think about.
One would hope that, given what she knows about you, the Cognitive Dissonance Scale may have an effect on her.
-Jut
I think maintain the status quo. You’re not “hiding” anything. If I read right you engage in friendly conversation and keep it light; and she’s not pressing you to stake a claim, so she’s doing the same thing – engaging in friendly conversation.
When the issue arises – i.e. if she looks into your background further or presses an issue – and you get the opportunity to reply, you can state that being a lifelong Red Sox fan has never diminished a great relationship with a Yankee fan (assuming she gets the sports reference).
The value in life is fellowship with kind souls – not casting the first stone.
If she cuts you off, best you can do is keep being friendly when you get the chance (“hope you’re well, miss our conversations”).
I had a breakthrough with my daughter trying to do that (and often failing, sometimes my anger got me – and her reservations were often present).
Try to be Christ-like and keep going. It was not easy for a long time, but we’ve really thawed some things out.
Two cents, worth less than usual in these inflationary times….
She IS a Yankee fan!
TDS is one thing. Being a Yankee fan in Boston is deeply, deeply disturbing. Run. Run far, and run fast!!!
jvb
The rest of my comment is not posting … perhaps I’ll try later …
I just posted another comment, it showed up as posted for about 20 seconds and then disappeared. Weird.
P.S. This time I copied my comment so I can post it again later.
The same, post and then vanish, thing happened again. It’s weird that short message like this one don’t do that.
Jack,
Did you change any of your settings in the last 24 hours?
Anything at all, no matter how insignificant it might be.
Steve
The commenting font features larger lettering.
PWS
Nope. WP makes secret changes all the time, and it drive me nuts.
Having said that (above), she is interested in you, Jack. Despite the twenty year age gap she sees you not as the poor old lonely widower next door, but as a potential 6th? husband.
I would second that. She probably is interested in you maybe romantically, but at least as a boyfriend/companion.
If you are going to confront her, I would approach it from a worry perspective. As you have said, she is very bright, but this obsession with politics is making her miserable. Maybe try to steer her away from an obsession with politics. Trump is living rent-free in her brain 24/7 and she shouldn’t let him do that.
NONONONO. Definitely not. She thinks I’m a father figure, or something. No romantic intentions at all. Ew.
Did you really say “ew?”
Hah!
6th husband? Who is she? Elizabeth Taylor?
jvb
She should be focusing her gaze elsewhere, on someone more ideologically pure, but she doesn’t know that. Sometime soon, let a conservative idea or two creep into a conversation and see what happens.
Oh, I have, many times. Last week she told me I had to “vote early” because “we” need to make sure the West Coast sees a blue wave, or something. I said, immediately, “I object in principle to early voting.Everyone should have the whole campaign period to assess candidates.” She said, “You should vote early anyway.” I replied “Nope!” End of that conversation.
If you’re serious about wanting to address this dilemma, then I can help.
You want to be honest while maintaining kindness. You can do both, but not immediately. This person may not be able to handle your complete honesty in the short term, but over time it is possible to change that.
You can maintain kindness in the short term. While doing so, I recommend getting to understand this person’s concerns. It sounds like you’re already capable of listening without blowing your cover, so that’s good.
The next step would be actively validating her concerns in a way that you can agree with, a way that doesn’t contradict anything about your own concerns. This reframes the situation in a way she can accept, but it also prompts reflection on why she cares about the issue. This opens up future possibilities for her being able to understand other people’s concerns.
I you can find a sentiment that theoretically aligns with their judgment, but for a more nuanced reason. That gets them thinking about nuanced reasons for believing what they believe, which gets them thinking about situations where they might stop believing it.
For example, let’s say someone criticizes something silly like the ballroom renovation. I might say something like, “If Trump is just throwing money around to redo his surroundings on a whim, I would find that untrustworthy. Building renovations should take serious consideration.” It’s a hypothetical that accurately describes my feelings, without making a judgment about what’s actually happening. I’m voicing a principle rather than a bias. That introduces the possibility to their minds that it’s possible for Trump to do things that they wouldn’t hate.
Then we can look up more information together and potentially say, “Alright, it looks like he didn’t do something completely stupid here.” That’s solid progress towards getting people to think of Trump as a person and his decisions as tradeoffs, rather than thinking of him as an abstract representation of ultimate evil and all his decisions as automatically bad.
The critical first step is that you identify why you care about the disagreement. The second step is to identify not only why your friend feels the way she does about Trump, but why she thinks she feels that way. Only then can you create an environment where she is comfortable enough to start thinking with her whole brain and reconsidering her perspective.
If anyone has a similar problem and would like to walk through effective approaches, feel free to schedule a meeting here: https://www.visionaryvocabularies.com/.
Many great comments so far but I would first ask myself what do I want out of this relationship and is it only my responsibility to ensure that the other person is always happy with me.
If she begins to rant let her finish and then use the language you used to describe her here. You used the term “brilliant” and a great Scrabble player. Lead with that but let her know that you hold a different opinion on the matter. You can then ask her if she would like to here your take on the subject matter. If the answer is negative then calmly ask if she believes that avoiding alternative opinions is constructive in developing a dialogue. If she is adamant about not wanting to hear anything other than her points then explain to her that you feel you are being unethical by deceiving her with your silence and perhaps it is best if political topics should be kept to ourselves.
Conversely, is she is open to a dialogue then I would suggest using the Socratic method in order to let her prove her case. This way she feels in control but you can always challenge her “facts”.
Finally, you should only engage in relationships in which you are an equal player. Being the guy that shuts up just to get alone all the time will ultimately cause you greater grief.
1. Oh, I never shut up. You should know that by now.
2. Her crazy rants don’t bother me. I’m just thinking, “How did such a smart, informed person get like this?” I also don’t expect her to self-censor for my benefit. I just asked her if she wanted to go with me to Annapolis next weekend and see my Gilbert and Sullivan presentation for the Annapolis Opera, since I can’t get anyone else to go.She declined, saying she hated all musical theater (which is weird, but whatever). “But I’ll drive you down there if you want!” she said. See? Kind. She likes doing things for people, even people who don’t need it…
3. The woman literally says she will not speak to or have any relationship with anyone who would vote for this President. I not only voted for him twice, I am secure in my analysis that he is one of the most effective and important Presidents in US history, transformational, and I have the historical information to prove it. I don’t like the guy, I think in many ways he has damaged the office and the culture, but I also don’t know where the nation would be without him: nowhere good. And anyone who honestly thinks Kamala Harris was a valid alternative is a textbook victim of Stage 4 “Bias makes you stupid.” My friend wore a “Kamala” T-shirt to the dog park with me last week.
4. “If she is adamant about not wanting to hear anything other than her points then explain to her that you feel you are being unethical by deceiving her with your silence and perhaps it is best if political topics should be kept to ourselves.” But I don’t mind hearing her crazy opinions. It’s informative in my Trump Derangement research. She needs someone who respects her opinions enough to listen to her. Her alternative is talking to her dogs. I respect her, I just think her political views are garbage, and that they make an otherwise responsible person say and do dumb things (like going to protests over the Reflecting Pool.)
5. I wouldn’t be shocked if she actually does know my assessment of some of these issues. She is very informed; she is web-savvy. She knows I have an ethics blog. If you ask Google’s AI “Who is Jack Marshall?” with the right prompts, it spits out some fair characterizations. I dunno, maybe she is setting me up for an ambush…
I had a longer post that WordPress deleted. I will resubmit the crux of it.
If you are comfortable with the things as they are, then continue. If this is making you uncomfortable because you feel like you are being deceptive, then either distance yourself or just bring it up. You could discuss how you don’t think this obsession is good for her and that not everyone has to have the same opinions politically. You probably will end the friendship, but maybe not. There is no real ‘right’ answer here.
What’s going on here?
They definitely did a substantial update. I have to select ‘Add Your Name’, then fill in name and e-mail to a popup to post. That used to be under the text box.
Whew! One of the all-time most interesting comment compilations by the Fab Five. The EA Commentariat Does Dating Advice! Was just chuckling over how Alizia would have commented on this topic with her hobby horses leading the way. How would the fall of Western Civilation and the evils of Zionism fit in? Im not sure, but I’m sure they would. Hah!
My Leftist Friend is all “From the River to the Sea” all the time. How could she not be?
I refuse to talk politics with anyone other than my closest friends for just this reason. I have several leftist fraternity brothers that have acted the same way as your friends to people who violate their religion.
Thus, I change the subject and remain on speaking terms. It’s not like I’m going to convince them of anything, after all — God himself would likely struggle to do so, and I’m certainly not as capable as Him!
My verdict: Thoughtful, kind, and ethical
You’re in a no-win situation, Jack, as you know. Either way it goes, you’re going to be villainized for keeping your views secret and then shattering her image of you.
We had a long time friend (30+ years) we used to work with but retired a while back. Similar situation, we would tell her we’re not talking politics or current political events because she couldn’t see any other point of view but her own, which was usually whatever was on MSNBC, CNN, etc. She too had cut people out of her life for similar thought crimes and out turn came up over the summer.
We’d had lunch with her and her husband back in June and all was well but very shortly afterward, she decided we’d crossed some line and broke off the friendship. My wife tried repeatedly to apologize for whatever slight/offense occurred but nothing worked.
Being in public education, we know a lot of people that just assume our politics because we’re in a field dominated with liberals. It’s always fun to watch the most diehard of them when they learn that we don’t conform to the standard groupthink. One woman didn’t talk to me for several years after I wore a Trump shirt to a staff PD meeting (on a non-student day of course).
Most of the people I know (and plenty I don’t know personally) who suffer from TDS have something in common: they feel that those who vote for Trump, or support MAGA, or who dares to call themselves a Conservative/Republican, have absolutely no morals whatsoever. This “feeling”, uttered with absolute conviction every time, sickens me to my core.
I often feel that the Left, Democrats, Progressives, Pro-Abortion advocates, etc., lack morality (and sense)…but I not only do not express that viewpoint, I also don’t attribute it to them as a blanket assessment. I try to listen to people as individuals. I don’t ever say that these people who vote for other candidates, or don’t attend church, or have different political opinions than I do are bad people, or immoral. I’ve known far too many people who are generally decent, good people, who have become absolutists in their hatred for Trump and all things associated with him, even the most tangential things.
Most of them assume that I feel exactly the way they do. I have a reputation as a kind person, intelligent, passionate, a theatre-girl, one who has devoted my life to my husband, family and friends, rescuing disabled and abused animals, the daughter of an immigrant from a Communist country. I’m well-traveled, well-educated. The antithesis of a person who would support Trump, MAGA, Republicans, law enforcement, America in general.
And I would shock them all if I opened my mouth and told them all of my thoroughly researched viewpoints and long held beliefs.
I’m in the same boat you are, Jack. I feel like such a coward most days. I’ve always been strong and vocal about my opinions and convictions…until 2016. And then I stopped talking (except anonymously), lest I lose the people I care about. It’s been a long, dark, dismal decade. I find much solace here with your blogs and the wonderful, insightful commentary provided by your friends and fans. I’m so grateful to all of you.