Comment Of The Day: “Greek Easter Ethics Warm-Up: Authority, Causation, Credibility And Dead Ethics Alarms” [#4]

Long-time commenter E2 scores her first Comment of the Day with some perspective on why Western civilization, and the United States particularly, owes Israel a permanent debt.

I have no problem with critics having honest, reasonable differences with Israel’s policies and the U.S.’s support of them, as long as such critics have a sufficient knowledge of the history of the Jewish people, their existential plight in the Thirties through World War II, the initial contrived ignorance of the U.S. government and President Roosevelt of that plight, and how the State of Israel came into existence. (Two new biographies of playwright and screenwriter Ben Hecht, who played a large but largely forgotten role in that remarkable event, were just published this month. There is a reason one of the ships that brought Jewish ex-patriots to Israel was named, “The Ben Hecht.”)

As E2 points out, the public ignorance of all of this is staggering, and it fertilizes the dirt from which anti-Semitism grows, of late, in abundance. One of the many jaw-dropping statements of stupidity or dishonesty—it’s often so hard to tell which with him— that Joe Biden uttered after his announcement of his candidacy was that America needed to return to being loyal to its allies. Biden was the #2 official in an administration that displayed the most outright hostility to Israel of any since the nation’s founding, our ally that most needs our support and that common decency demands should always be able to count on it.

Here is E2’s Comment of the Day on the item #4 in the post, “Greek Easter Ethics Warm-Up: Authority, Causation, Credibility And Dead Ethics Alarms.”

Does no one know any history at all? That, for example, the English Jews funded the Crusades, and when the King of England couldn’t pay back his debt, he simply exiled all Jews from the country to Europe? Hence, an early forced diaspora of Jews.

Do others really believe that anti-Semitism was grown by Hitler and ended in the Holocaust? Do so many not  know that FDR’s anti-Semitic State Department refused political asylum for desperate Jews from Hitler’s Germany…or the story of the ship “St. Louis” – full of fleeing Jews, that went from port to port in the US and were never allowed entry?

I honestly believe that anti-Semitism is basic insecurity on the part of other religions and cultures. “Rabbi” means “teacher,” and the Jewish culture has taken learning and excelling as a basic tenet. So yes, there are lots of Jewish doctors, lawyers, artists and businessmen, because achievement is what the culture expects.

(As an aside, there is no proselytizing by Jews. Other religions require it, but Jews are trying to preserve what they have, not “turn” others to expand their ranks. This should be considered by those who adhere to the moronic conspiracy theory that Jews want to rule the world.)

I have the greatest respect for the State of Israel. The turn-around – in a single generation – from ‘putting up’ to ‘fighting back’ is awe-inspiring.

You can denigrate Jews if you like: to me, all that means is that your own religion and your own culture knows its own ethic is flawed, and in desperation, you denigrate Jews and foster hatred.

(PS. I am a lapsed Methodist, and well-versed in the hypocrisy of that particular denomination.)

 

40 thoughts on “Comment Of The Day: “Greek Easter Ethics Warm-Up: Authority, Causation, Credibility And Dead Ethics Alarms” [#4]

  1. I, personally, have great respect and admiration for the Jewish people and Israel. Did you know that there is a museum near Cairo that celebrates the Six-day war and Egypt’s “great victory” over the invading Israeli forces…,or should I say COUNTERATTACKING?

  2. “You can denigrate Jews if you like: to me, all that means is that your own religion and your own culture knows its own ethic is flawed, and in desperation, you denigrate Jews and foster hatred.”
    It seems to me that this statement captures a basic truth about denigration of individuals (mostly) and groups or cultures (generally). It’s a way of saying, I am better than that person, ethnic group, or cultural group. We tell our kids that putting others down will not elevate ourselves, and then, as adults, we do it to those who are different or who we disagree with.
    Well said, E2.

  3. (PS. I am a lapsed Methodist, and well-versed in the hypocrisy of that particular denomination.)

    More properly put you are a Christian Zionist and your unthinking zeal will, in the end, do tremendous harm. The American Christian Zionist movement also does great harm to America. Indeed, the policies pursued by American Christian Zionists (Bush the younger is a good example) have done possibly irreparable damage. The effects of that cause continues to manifest in our present. But no one of you will consider this. It is like you cannot (will not to) see. And you cannot and you will not be able to take in these words, nor understand why they are said. To understand modern Israel, and even before understanding Jewish Zionism, Christian Zionism needs to be understood.

    Oh well . . .

    See: Stephan Sizer’s “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?”

    • What specifically does this add to or negate from E2’s post?

      Why is it that you imply that people are wrong because they do not acknowldge that which you allege is their failing?

      I take the time to review your ideas and links you often provide. I even try to reinforce a point you make when It makes sense to do so- or when I am so inclined. Unfortunately, you invariably state that the reason people are misguided is because they don’t see the world as you do. That is circular reasoning.

      • I take the time to review your ideas and links you often provide. I even try to reinforce a point you make when It makes sense to do so — or when I am so inclined. Unfortunately, you invariably state that the reason people are misguided is because they don’t see the world as you do. That is circular reasoning.

        American Christian Zionism is, in my opinion, very very destructive. The recent wars that have brought so much damage in their train, are closely related to American Zionism (which is, on the whole, a Christian Zionism). If I do make the effort to allude to a position that is critical of American Zionism and Christian Zionism it is in good faith and because I honestly believe that this unreflecting ‘support’ of Israel, and the excessive power Israel has been allowed to have in and *over* American policy, is really & truly perverse and profoundly unethical.

        Your last sentence is your projection I think. You do not have to accept what I say. Look into the issue in more depth. There are many many people — and many Israelis — who go much farther in developing a critical position than mine.

        • This circular reasoning I mentioned is based on you telling everyone we are unwilling to undertake introspection which is why there is disagreement to some of your ideas. That is not projection that is an assessment.

          • I understand that you call it ‘circular reasoning’, and I understand that you believe it is such and that this is your assessment. You are free to form any opinion and concept that you wish.

            I do tell ‘everyone’ (on this particular blog, and everyone seems to be of one mind in respect to this issue and issues related to it) that I feel strongly they could do more research and understand different dynamics to this complex and enormously dangerous and destructive situation vis-a-vis Israel and Israel’s insertion of itself into American policy. Yes, yes and yes again.

            It is not a question of ‘introspection’ — as if some inward turn will reveal something unknown. It is a question of reading and understanding what Christian Zionism is, and understanding it as an antecedent to Jewish Zionism.

            No one who writes on this blog has even a minimal idea of what the full scope of the issue is. Everyone that I have read here just crows the same tune, more or less. This is an American defect in my (humble) opinion. You-plural often just parrot what you have heard on TeeVee and assume is truth. Do more research.

            • OK. Here’s some historical data for you. Judaism pre-dates Christianity by a couple of thousand years. So the reality is that Christian Zionism, whatever that is CANNOT be an antecedent of Judaistic Zionism.

              • A definition of Christian Zionism:

                Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 were in accordance with Bible prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism.

                Traditional Catholic thought did not consider Zionism in any form. However Christian advocacy grew after the Protestant Reformation in support of the restoration of the Jews. A contemporary Israeli historian suggests that evangelical Christian Zionists of the 1840s “passed this notion on to Jewish circles”, while Jewish nationalism in the early 19th century was widely regarded with hostility by British Jews.

                Some Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus. The idea has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christians as a means of fulfilling Biblical prophecy.

                That is from the very standard Wiki page. Hope this helps!

                • If you have to cut and paste the definition from wikipedia, perhaps you might consider that we don’t know about zionism enough to care more than a distant way, not even care enough to know about it. I know I care more about bias in my back yard far more than ten thousand miles away. Bias in NYC, a couple hours’ drive away is a bigger threat to what American culture exists than people wanting to live in Palestine. International politics for the US makes bigger mistakes when it gets too far away from ‘what is’ and argues from what ‘should (or should not) be.’

                  Israel exists. It has existed for generations now. Any change you philosophically seem to be advocating for will make a messy situation only messier. Take your pick from the song anthems: “Let It Go” on individual empowerment amidst critics from Frozen, or the Eagles’ “Get Over It.” There is no clean and profound answer, except maybe time itself.

                  • I chose a simple definition from Wikipedia because it is mainstream and accepted for definition purposes.

                    History is long, and Jewish history has in no sense ended.

                    I liked your Shakespeare reference better than those from popular music!

                    • Wikipedia is full of errors, misconceptions, and bad history. It is written by amateurs– ever notice the posts that basically ask for references, updates, and real facts? If that’s your source, believe about half of it.

                    • My Dearest E2. Wiki is not my source in any sense, ever. Wiki is a commonly accepted public encyclopedia which, though imperfect, sometimes has good information, or a place to start anyway.

                      The only thing that you need to pay attention to is the precise reference I quoted. Nothing more. It provides a general — an accessible –definition of Christian Zionism.

                      Instead of bothering with Wikipedia and any critical ideas you have about it, skip that as irrelevancy, and pay attention to the definition offered.

                      Make sense?

        • Alizia says (a veritable truth in the midst of a immaterial diatribe): There are many many people — and many Israelis — who go much farther in developing a critical position than mine. And mine, no “lapsed” Jew I, but one who took away every positive aspect of the culture and left the religion behind.

          There are many many people, Israelis and others, who are disenchanted with the Israeli government and who have the right to express that freely and do so. Jews don’t have to have an “education” outside of the home to dispute any idea put to them; they are (some annoyingly, like one of my uncles) ready for a hearty debate at any time of day on any subject. They may even switch viewpoints just for the heck (no such thing as Hell in Judaism) of it. Jewish men in particular – and certainly Israelis – are raised studying the Torah, a book of arguments and interpretations. One Jewish holiday is incomplete without the Four Questions – put to the youngest child and answered in unison by the rest.

          Currently Israel is a multiparty parliamentary democracy. It has a Declaration of Independence legally adopted in 1985 as ” A Jewish and Democratic State.” In spite of these American-sounding words, Israel is highly militarized and has all the flaws and apprehensions of such a society, both in giving and receiving.

          Israeli critics of their homeland are still walking the Earth, disapproved of but neither hindered nor harassed by the Knesset (a unicameral parliament, which also counts fierce dissenters among its members, nor the military unless attacked directly). The work of well known “Perfect-Israel Deniers” (or pids, according to a local rabbi I know) is known to, if not taught by, people who are diametrically opposed to the country’s policies on nearly every ground. For instance, Avraham Burg published a book called “Defeating Hitler” in which he claimed that Israeli society was made fascist and violent by the continuing trauma over the Holocaust. Ilan Pappé authored “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” (2006). He left Israel for a professorship in the UK the following year because of death threats from “ordinary Israelis who clutch at the old idea(l) of a ‘Promised Land’ because they cannot bear more change in their lives”. [continuing Hillary is our Leader madness]. Gershom Gorenberg is an internationally known journalist who published “The Unmaking of Israel”, in which he decries the settler movement and the government directly for allowing for the Haredi (the Orthodox) to “undermine Israeli democracy”. Oren Yiftachel, who has both taught and worked world-wide at his profession of urban planner, is an outspoken member in at least four known activist organizations inside Israel and others outside. Then there’s peace activist Miko Peled’s “The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine” as an account of how he, “the son of an Israeli General and a staunch Zionist”, came to realize that “the story upon which I was raised … was a lie.”

          They are all known in Israel. Censorship is rife, particularly toward critics of the military; there are periodic government crackdowns for security purposes, and an insistence on “editing out unpleasantness from schoolbooks,” [gee, that sounds familiar], and lots of other justified complaints about Israeli leadership. The Haredi, themselves Jews of the most fundamental, are alt-right in government and self-isolating while constantly pushing their boundaries. The rest of the male population of pietists are steeped in constant Talmudic study – which those who can afford it indulge in for a lifetime, without other employment, their wives engaged in as many children as they can produce. But the majority of Israelis – one of the most diverse anywhere due to diaspora scattered around the world and with the same besetting sins as we have – in general share (or catch like;a cold) a common characteristic, they always leave room for debate. It makes them feel good; it is the dessert that tops off a happy meal.

          Should “happy meal” have a copyright icon after it??

            • Hello there. Thanks for that. A whiles back I was listening to the music of that era and could only be amazed by it. I found this song which I thought was almost perfect in construction. Every bit of it seemed perfect.

          • Alizia says (a veritable truth in the midst of an immaterial diatribe) . . .

            Not so, esteemed Sir. Christian Zionism is a disease of the mind, a disease in America, not to mention of theology, that needs to be confronted.

    • Why are you focusing so much on a parenthetical addition to her post instead of the substance? Should it matter if she is an active Satanist, a High Druid, or atheist in her comments on Jewish diasporas? Identifying a lapsed religion as a dominant factor in a reply is particularly pointless because ‘lapsed’ pretty much means refutes refuting at least some principles of that religion. Picking nits should be amusing and short if you want to be convincing.

      Zionism was only a sentence or two in a substantive comment, most was concerning the culture before and during the WW2. (I believe the world being horrified at the most horrible anti-semitic regime made a refuge country necessary) Whatever Zionism made Isreal possible, made refugees from anti-semitic situations collect and stop being passive victims and ‘take arms against a sea of troubles.’ Israeli battle was a generation after the decimating war, in the ’60s and ’70s, and not really relevant to the resurgence of antisemitic bigotry in 2019.

      That bigotry is the topic- because it’s happening in Europe and the US right now despite last century’s lessons, NOT in the Middle East. Deflecting the topic is not speaking on the viral bigotry.

      • Why are you focusing so much on a parenthetical addition to her post instead of the substance?

        It was just a way to get from A to B: to refer to the astounding influence of Christian Zionism: a profoundly erroneous reading and interpretation.

        My understanding of my own history, my relationship to Judaism, and my understanding of European antisemitism leads me to very (very) different thoughts about the upsurge of counter-Judaism in the present. (Just mentioning ‘counter-Judaism’ indicates, here, unthinkable thought. But this is typical, isn’t it? To hold and to express ideas that are illegal and shunned by ‘the group’ is the rôle I have assumed here. )

        The American backing of Christian Zionism will I think end in disaster. I’d rather have avoided that, if it were possible. But of course I am just an observer, not a player.

        • My understanding of my own history, my relationship to Judaism, …

          The American backing of Christian Zionism will I think end in disaster. I’d rather have avoided that, if it were possible. But of course I am just an observer, not a player.

          You have yet to offer an iota of explanation as to WHY “American Zionism”, whatever this phrase means, is dangerous. You keep dancing around the issue, nakedly reasserting the same thing without further evidence, or even explaining what movement you are criticizing.

          • This is not the place for extended conversation on this theme nor any theme that requires a great deal of time. I did include a reference and a video which, if researched and seen, respectively, would clearly indicate what the danger is. I can only suggest that you do more research. Here is just one of many different sources. I Googled “Christian Zionism Critique”.

            An Ethical Critique of Christian Zionism

            Kind of a snappy title, no? I like the fact that the author has included a reference to ETHICS. It seems quite appropriate given that the blog is dedicated to ethics. How synchronous!

            As I have said about 200 times so far: Average Americans, and definitely so-called ‘Conservative Americans’, do not have to worry about ethics. What they do (what America does) is metaphysically correct and proper. You can bomb people *back to the stone age*, you can undermine their sovereignty, you can kill and wound, and you never have to answer for it! You are, or you have become, an unethical people. I say this after 5 years of participation here (and in some other places).

            I only wish to communicate my sense of things, based on what I see. If it offends, I am sorry (to a certain point obviously).

        • Anti-Semitism inside the US like the NYT doesn’t really have anything to do with Zionist movements, here or in foreign cities where the international comic was run. Zionist is pro, and anti- is against Israel. The original comment had no relation to whether Israel should exist.

          One of the better trends we have tried to pursue here is to reduce bigotry against people because of involuntary factors. I don’t really care if my friend is a Pakistani-origin Muslim, NY Jew, black cyber-geek, or gay from the megalopolis. That cartoon was offensive to the once-cherished ideal of the melting pot in the US. We are not just our religious heritage, we choose what we support. (and really, do you honestly think any fellow-traveler religious thought dominates the President’s decisions? If you do, I have a bridge in Phoenix to sell you. He cares only about deals)

          And worse was the namby-pamby apology that the editorial staff and publisher could hide their bias. Slamming the Prez is fine, that’s part of the job. It’s the clothing the editorial hatred as if Trump is led around by some shred of religion that is absurd.

          • Anti-Semitism inside the US like the NYT doesn’t really have anything to do with Zionist movements, here or in foreign cities where the international comic was run. Zionist is pro, and anti- is against Israel. The original comment had no relation to whether Israel should exist.

            I have researched historical anti-Semitism likely more than anyone who writes on Jack’s blog. I spent months and months doing this. I understand very well I think what anti-Semitism is.

            At the same time I have researched what is called (or should be called) the ‘counter-Jewish’ perspective. I do not regard non-philo-Semitism as some sort of disease. I do not regard a Jewish-critical position, either historically nor more contemporaneously, as being ‘off-limits thought’ (unthinkable thought to put it poignantly). I think a Counter-Jewish position, especially as it pertains to Israel and American subservience to the State of Israel (and Israel’s untoward influence through American Jews and Jewish organizations) can be critiqued rationally and fairly.

            Do you see? You cannot. Any critique, for you, can only be anti-Semitism. You are unfortunately stuck in a binary trap. This leaves you only with the option of accepting the general American policy view, and it also, naturally, weds you to having to support a range of actions and also consequences of those actions.But it seems to me that you do not arrive at your perspective as a result of an intellectual nor of a moral process (in the Protestant sense of having really engaged with the moral question).

            You, Isaac, E2 can only revert to one ‘argument’: that anyone who questions or opposes American policy to Israel, and Israeli influence over American policy, must necessarily be an anti-Semite. It is a horrifyingly simplistic pseudo-argument. It does not even qualify as an argument.

            Oh well. Can’t say I did not try! 😉

          • Sorry, I should have written the above paragraph better, like this:

            “I think a Counter-Jewish position is valid, especially as it pertains to Israel and American subservience to the State of Israel (and Israel’s untoward influence through American Jews and Jewish organizations), and that American and Israeli policy, and American & Israeli machinations of lies, can be critiqued rationally and fairly.”

            I guess I am certifiably insane! Call in a head-shrink . . .

    • Sorry. If you’re anti-Semitic YOU WILL NOT SEE. All the ‘progressive’ Democrats in the country who cannot get over Hillary’s loss also WILL NOT SEE. Take your ideology where it belongs: in the toilet.

      • I would not have expected a much different response from you. It is so easy to stay within the closed loop so, yes, I understand. But up above I posted a thoughtful video by the Israeli Miko Peled, which if you would take the time to watch, would at least offer you some perspective on my own view.

        While I admit that I could not in this blog format present all the long and detailed arguments that might explain my own views, and can only make references to materials that you could study on your own (as a project of investigation of ethics and history, your response here E2 is really very weak.

        In no sense do my views, nor the Israeli dissident views, ‘belong in the toilet’. In fact they deserve to be given a highlighted place so that people could examine the history, see where the lies and deceptions have entered in, and make real moral and ethical choices.

        You keep yourself from that, obviously, and you also help to keep others from it. You are just one of many who in this way contribute to very bad outcomes.

    • Please, please do not define me on the basis of one comment. This is the ultimate in unthinking bias. Because I am a ‘lapsed Methodist’ I am automatically a Christian Zionist? How can you possibly make that assumption? Maybe I left Methodism for Buddhism. What do you know? Especially about me.

      Your great intellectual leaps — written in overlong prose and with unbelievable assumptions that only you are right, are frankly tiresome. Honestly, sometimes I think you sound like a great-niece of Joseph Mengele, who escaped to Paraguay after the Holocaust.

      My first writing teacher also told me “less is more.” If you can’t get your ideas across in half or a quarter in length they are now, others will stop reading you. Maybe they shouldn’t anyway. Let your nonsense stand as is, and don’t give it credence by a response.

      • No, your entire notion about Israel and America’s generally, is nearly non-different from that derived from the Christian Zionist perspective. That structure-of-view pervades all American discourse on Israel. One reason is because media, generally, has a strong Jewish presence, and so the views about Israel seem skewed to ‘support’ without criticism. Jews in America and also Israelis (not all of course but a significant number) receive tremendous support from Christian Zionists and they also cultivate CZs and network with them. If you looked into the issue with some seriousness, you’d find this out quickly.

        The same pseudo-critique you offer here is a cookie-cutter version I have heard before here. I dismiss it 100%.

        You have not offered any conversation at any level on the ideas I presented. Instead, you critique the writing. You cannot ‘respond’ to what I write and the ideas I present because you have none. Your thinking is received thinking, not thought derived from genuine intellectual process.

        I hope your comprehension skill enabled you to grasp what I have just written. If not let me know. Always willing to give it another shot. 🙂

        Let your nonsense stand as is, and don’t give it credence by a response.

        You should have started there, not ended there. It’s what you meant to say.

  4. Actually yes, I know some history. Some of this is true. But the assertion that the Jews funded the Crusades is simply untrue. Actually the Jews during the first few Crusades were in mortal danger, to the point where somewhat more tolerant communities like Mainz and Cologne in Germany had to hide their Jewish population when the Frist Crusade came through. Once the Crusaders took Jerusalem in 1099 they expelled all non-Christians from the City, sacking the synagogue (although the story that they burned it with the Jews inside has come under question recently). The dirty secret there, though, was that the Jews fought alongside Iftikhar’s Muslim soldiers in the defense. They weren’t a population of innocent noncombatants caught between two rival armies of fanatics. They had also sided with the Persians against the Byzantine Christians four centuries before (boy, they knew how to pick the winners) , and that hadn’t been forgotten, though they’d paid a terrible price for it. There does not appear to be any evidence that the Jews funded any of the later Crusades either, most of which were funded by taxation. Why would they fund expeditions that had already gone after their people?

    The Edict of Expulsion by Edward I in 1290 was not in response to crusading debts owed to the Jews, although he had gone on crusade to the Holy Land while he was still crown prince (not yet Prince of Wales, his son, later Edward II (NOT a simpering sissy, although he may have had male as well as female lovers) was the first heir to bear that title), It was the culmination of 200 years of persecution. The Jews were specifically excluded from the early protections of the Magna Carta. His father Henry III had already issued the Edict of the Badge, making Jews wear identifying yellow badges, and overseen more than a few pogroms designed at destroying evidence of debts owed. In 1275 Edward I issued the Statute of the Jewry, which outlawed lending money for profit (the Jews’ economic niche) and gave them 15 years to readjust. In 1287 he kicked the Jews out of Gascony. In 1290 he imposed a steep tax on his nobles, offering to expel the Jews so the nobles could plunder their property for an offset. Most English Jews fled to France, Spain, Flanders, the Holy Roman Empire, or Poland at that point.

    Of course some of that didn’t last, as Ferdinand and Isabella issued the Alhambra Decree, expelling Jews from Spain, and a good part of Poland eventually was absorbed into Russia, not exactly a fan of the Jews. Of course anti-Semitism didn’t start with Hitler. He just took it up to eleven and made it an industry. It didn’t end with him either, although a good amount of it found its way to the Muslim world. A good amount of it dates back pretty far here too. When the Port of New Orleans was first established by the French Mississippi Company the first law they put on the books was that no Jew would be allowed to enter the port. We don’t even need to talk about how the WASPs in the South decided they didn’t want anyone who rejected Christ around.

    Oh, and that problem with achievement isn’t unique to Jews either. The Armenians were another people that put a premium on education and achievement. Unfortunately, most ethnic Turks were farmers and small shopkeepers who had no use for this “uppity” Christian minority. It was no mistake that the first step the Turks took against the Armenians was to round up 600 Armenian writers, teachers, clergymen, and so on and make them disappear. Part of it was doing away with leaders, but part of it was just plain hatred of minority achievers.

    I also have no use for those who hate the Jews as a matter of course. I have no use for those who hate most people as a matter of course. Some of my ancestors got treated like crap by the Austrians and got rocks thrown at them here. Others were abused by the British at home and faced NINA signs when they arrived here. Maybe one of these days I will extend that to the Muslims, but right now it’s hard to extend it to the faith of my nation’s sworn enemies who too few of their own condemn.

    • “Actually yes, I know some history.”

      I will unequivocally, with neither reservation nor remorse, confirm that you, in no uncertain terms, DO know you some History.

      From where I’m sitting, leastways.

    • Thanks for the history lesson. My limited knowledge (partially correct) was used in my post as an example of anti-Semitism pre-Hitler and the Holocaust. My other opinions in that comment still stand, however. You only make my case stronger. And having known some Christian Armenians, I did know why they hated all Turks, but didn’t bring it up in a discussion of the persecution of Jews. Jews are clearly not the only ones: but that was the topic. Thanks for your input.

    • I also have no use for those who hate the Jews as a matter of course.

      I am not sure what ‘matter of course’ means. Most the Jewish-criticism that is being circulated — it is not ‘hatred’ — is based most often in a critique of Jewish progressivism. That is, to get involved in projects of social engineering. That seems to take place when the impetuous is secular but the motive is still ‘religious’ (as in missionary). The critique is based on a critique of a sort of meddlesomeness: getting involved in radical or progressive projects that alter the culture. The question: Who are you and what are you doing in my culture? is, as I have made efforts to understand, what some critics of Jewish influence resent.

      See E. Michael Jones and his work of ‘the Jewish revolutionary spirit’. It has flaws, no doubt (he is too binary a thinker) but he also makes many good points about this Jewish revolutionary spirit. His vision of things is Christian though, and as a Catholic he sees that Judaism had been supplanted by the advent of Jesus Christ. It is a harder stance than that of many Protestants, and certainly that of Christian Zionists who recur to a position of a ‘dual dispensation’. The earthly realm for Jews and their historical mission; and the heavenly realm for Christians. And some also notice that Protestant Christians when they have lost a genuine connection to the metaphysics of Christian belief, more-or-less become Jews in certain senses. Insofar as a non-religious Jew is a quasi-Jew, some Protestant Christians seem to ‘identify’ with Jews.

      When Jews stop being Jews — when they stop being religious Jews — they seem, invariably, to get into trouble. If a Jew stops being a religious Jew, s/he really stops being a Jew altogether. Joseph Telushkin
      has written about this. Still, there are tremendous contributions that secularizing Jews make, of this there is no doubt. I say secularizing because there always seems to be a period of time between leaving religious Judaism and then, finally, assimilating into the general culture.

      When — if I should say, since it is unlikely that you or almost anyone else on the Blog will make the effort to understand ideas contrary or challenging to your own fixed ideas — if you read say Kevin MacDonald, you will see that the general critique is not incoherent by any degree. But, in our present, any critique of Jews or Judaism — in any aspect and for any reason — is illegal. It is a bizarre situation when you examine it.

      Since I converted out of Judaism (religious Judaism) I have no compunction against examining Judaism in all its historical breadth and depth.

      Here and among *you*, no one of you has any freedom to critically engage with the questions. All you are allowed to do is to offer pure anodyne ‘support’ with no critical edge of any sort. While this is understandable (you would be destroyed if you exteriorized your *secret thoughts*) it is, still, rather tragic.

  5. FDR was actually a fan of fascism, Mussolini in particular. FDR didn’t seem to be that fond of Hitler, but Hitler was fond of him. That, in addition to anti-semitism, might explain the refusal to take refugees.
    https://mises.org/library/three-new-deals-why-nazis-and-fascists-loved-fdr

    There is much to admire in Methodism. When you look at what Wesley and Whitefield did, it is hard to think that it wasn’t a miracle of God. However, I believe that if you hooked up some magnets and a coil to John Welsey’s corpse, you could power the world with the electricity generated from him spinning in the grave over the current policies of the United Methodist Church.
    (someone who napalmed the bridge as I left the church).

    • Hah! As the daughter of a Ph.D.in philosophy who for some insane reason went to seminary, was a pastor and ultimately a District Superintendent, I lived the hypocrisy of the UMC. He became a DS against all odds — hated for marching with Martin Luther King from Selma to Montgomery, and actually persecuted by his parishioners — ultimately the UMC must have lowered his IQ by 25 points, as well as his ability to see events and ideas critically, outside the ideology he had adopted. We never agreed on anything after he excused Bill Clinton on sexual harassment because she tempted him — this while Bishop Oxnam, a hero, defrocked ministers in the ’50s and ’60s for having sex with their female parishioners as ‘part of their ministry.’

      Though I do agree that John Wesley (who according to records converted my great, great, great, great grandfather from piracy to a moral life) and Charles, who wrote some of the finest hymns in Protestant music, should be admired. Both must be spinning in their graves:

      Still and all, organized religion — from Roman Catholic to Baptist to Jehovah’s Witnesses — are purposefully insular and still preach as much hate as they do love, and I won’t be a part of it.

      • . . . that John Wesley (who according to records converted my great, great, great, great grandfather from piracy to a moral life . . .

        Have you considered a return to the family tradition? Perhaps as a moral pirate? The world needs more of them . . .

  6. … for example, the English Jews funded the Crusades, and when the King of England couldn’t pay back his debt, he simply exiled all Jews from the country to Europe? Hence, an early forced diaspora of Jews.

    That is only partly correct (see Steve-O-in-NJ’s remarks). Much of the burden of funding English participation in the only crusade with major English involvement, the Third Crusade, was ultimately borne by English peasants (tax incidence). They also had to pay for ransoming that king, Richard I, after he was captured by enemies while returning. There is some overlap, though: Jews were often involved in farming rents and taxes, so expelling them would have let the king sell those farming rights all over again. Also, that wasn’t the time that English Jews were permanently exiled from England, that was just an ad hoc expedient that didn’t hit all the Jews (that sort of exile was quite common). That time, any who were exiled like that were soon allowed back, only to be exiled again – for pretty much those reasons – until Oliver Cromwell ended the general ban (there had been earlier partial exemptions). It may be a quibble for present purposes, though it matters a great deal for some purposes, but the general ban started with a transitional, restriction phase that allowed conversion; I see that Steve-O-in-NJ has covered that.

    As an aside, there is no proselytizing by Jews.

    Mostly not, but there have been times when it happened, e.g. to the Ituraeans under Hasmonaean rule. And I have heard that the Cochin Jews of India consider it a mitzvah to convert one servant each year (hence, their separation into White Jews and Black Jews).

    Other religions require it, but Jews are trying to preserve what they have, not “turn” others to expand their ranks. This should be considered by those who adhere to the moronic conspiracy theory that Jews want to rule the world.

    Actually, those theorists aren’t postulating that the Jews want to co-opt the rest of the world into their ranks and come to rule it that way, but rather by attaining rule in other ways and maintaining it by crowding out elements that interfere. They can offer inter-war Palestine as an example of this approach, accurately or otherwise, though they neglect to observe that it is not scalable to world domination.

    I have the greatest respect for the State of Israel. The turn-around – in a single generation – from ‘putting up’ to ‘fighting back’ is awe-inspiring.

    It took rather longer. Even leaving aside the odd anti-Christian pogrom in Ottoman cities where Christians were an even smaller minority, the “fighting back” that led to the foundation of the State of Israel went on for about two generations, on and off. I know, I know, it wasn’t major until after the Arab Revolt of 1936, but if the point is to trace its development, then the date of conception is as relevant as it is to a pregnancy that is not yet obvious.

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