Actress Melissa McCarthy stole the film “Bridesmaids” right out from under its better known stars, including the screenplay’s author, Kirsten Wigg. In that film, her hit CBS sitcom “Mike and Molly,” and subsequent films (of varying quality), McCarthy has shown that she is s versatile, appealing comedienne with deep dramatic resources. Film critic Rex Reed, however, is mostly concerned with her weight, which is usually a component of the characters she plays and the quality, other than her talent, that sets her apart from the standard issue, impossibly thin, fit and sexy Hollywood actress.
In his withering review of her latest comedy “Identity Thief,” Reed causally refers to McCarthy as a “female hippo” and reduces her career to this: “Melissa McCarthy (Bridesmaids) is a gimmick comedian who has devoted her short career to being obese and obnoxious with equal success.” Called on his fat-bashing, Reed responded, “I have lost entirely too many friends to obesity-related diseases to pretend Ms. McCarthy’s alarming obesity is anything to applaud.”
There are two aspects of this that are striking. One is that Rex Reed, who played the pre-op Myra Breckenridge in the awful movie version of Gore Vidal’s gender-bending, and considered scandalous at the time, satiric novel (Raquel Welch, now over 70, was post-op), is still alive and reviewing, albeit obscurely until, as now, he writes something outrageous. At one time—40 years ago? Longer?— Reed was considered the most quotable and one of the most influential film critics; now, to say he is passé would be a compliment.
The other striking aspect of this incident is this: while the culture will turn with unforgiving venom on any public figure who derides individuals for their color, sexual orientation, malady or disability, any of which would be considered cruel, bigoted, and hateful, deriding individuals because their weight doesn’t meet with aesthetic norms—among which are now out-sized breasts on otherwise fat-free frames and sharply chiseled abdominal muscles, a look that was literally freakish until the dawn of Nautilus and personal trainers—-still is largely regarded as justified and acceptable.
Among the victims of this one of four societally-approved personal attacks (the other vulnerable individuals are those who are old, white, and male, and preferably all three, which excuses almost unrestrained ridicule and hatred) are New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, one-time “Cheers” hottie Kirstie Alley, and, of course, Rush Limbaugh. This is, of course, ad hominem attacking of the worst kind—Christie’s governance is flawed because he’s rotund, Alley’s considerable talent is irrelevant because she dared to stop calorie-counting, and Limbaugh’s conservative take on the world is suspect because, as a U.S. Senator once noted, he’s a “big fat idiot.” Behind this popular form of bigotry is a consensus that the overweight are lazy, self-indulgent gluttons, which is usually untrue, especially the lazy part.
As I wrote about another fat-bashing episode, when then-Senator John Kerry’s aide described Rush as “doughnut eating” in the course of rebutting some criticism of Kerry, of whom there is usually much to criticize…
“The fact that the law does not bar discrimination on the basis of attractiveness, weight, or some other physical attributes doesn’t change what a statement like this is: bigotry. “Fat people are not worthy of respect” is [the] message here, and [I] will not accept claims that “doughnut-eating” is meant as criticism of Limbaugh’s food preferences. There has never been any allegation I am aware of that Rush is especially fond of doughnuts or that he even eats them at all. Wade [Kerry’s aid], like all purveyors of bigotry, is talking in code. “Rush isn’t a jogger, like all our athletic 20-something supporters; he isn’t slim and fashionable, like our single female pro-choice supporters; he doesn’t eat tofu, like our virtuous environmentally-conscious healthy food and drug advocates. You should ignore him because he’s bad, and you know he’s bad because he’s fat.” How ugly; how juvenile; how offensive! Imagine, if you can, a spokesperson for, oh, Bill Frist disparaging “aging, bagel-eating, big-nosed Barbra Streisand.” Or “watermelon-eating, jive-talking, fornicating Jesse Jackson.” You can’t imagine it, probably; it would never happen, and if it did, there would the Devil to pay…and the Devil would deserve every penny he got. “
Reed’s “defense” is typical rationalization: it’s OK to insult an obese actress because lots of Americans die as a result of weight-related maladies. I believe Reed might have some objections if he was rebutted with the use of various homophobic slurs, justified because there are gay-related maladies as well, but being a gay man is now acceptable in America, so he wouldn’t have to. Such anti-gay bigots would be hounded into anonymity without Reed having to raise a finger.
I doubt that the cultural rejection of gratuitous fat-bashing and weight-based bigotry is coming any time soon. A classic example of visual cognitive dissonance is on display now on the cover of fashion magazine Elle, which ostensibly celebrates Melissa McCarthy but presents her in a heavily manipulated photo with make-up rendering her unrecognizable. She is clad, not in a gown, but in a cashmere coat that appears to be six sizes too big, thus creating approximately the same optical illusion that made Lilly Tomlin look like a four-year old when she sat in a giant rocking chair on “Laugh-In.” By all means, let’s not horrify readers by showing them McCarthy’s actual body—they might vomit or pass out.
At least the magazine didn’t make her wear a paper bag over her head.
____________________________________
Sources: The Blaze, New York Observer
Graphic: The Wrap
Ethics Alarms 
As a large man myself I have grown a rather thick skin when it comes to comments about my weight (get it? thick skin? haha).
But in reality it does bother me when the weight of other people is used against them. I don’t dislike Governor Christie because of his weight. His weight has nothing to do with his ability to govern. And I have been openly critical about those who do wish to make serious comments about his being fat making him someone who cannot govern.
For Reed to discount McCarthy just on her weight though shows that he is just a hack seeking to regain notability with shocking comments. She is a very talented person. I love her on Mike and Molly and have enjoyed her work in other shows/movies as well. She also has a good sense of humor about her weight. But perhaps she too has grown a thick skin about such things as I have.
Things were different in Shakespeare’s time:
CAESAR
Let me have men about me that are fat;
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep o’ nights:
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
ANTONY
Fear him not, Caesar; he’s not dangerous;
He is a noble Roman and well given.
CAESAR
Would he were fatter! But I fear him not:
(Julius Caesar, Act 1 Scene 2)
Probably will sound homophobic, however: Gay men crucify women who don’t fit the young man body type, or the motherly appearance. Melissa is brash, aggressive and outspoken, and zaftig. More power to her.
So calling Rex Reed unethical for his characterizations of Melissa is somewhat strange, given his frame of reference. Who would expect anything less from that person?
Okay… so I get that the critic was wrong for deriding her talent based on her weight (agreed – the two are obviously unrelated) but the resultant rant on fat bashing was a surprising swing-and-a-miss.
“The other striking aspect of this incident is this: while the culture will turn with unforgiving venom on any public figure who derides individuals for their color, sexual orientation, malady or disability, any of which would be considered cruel, bigoted, and hateful, deriding individuals because their weight doesn’t meet with aesthetic norms… still is largely regarded as justified and acceptable.”
The fundamental difference is that unlike skin color, sexual orientation, or disability, obesity is a choice. And unlike some of the other traits it has an unarguably profound negative effect on the individual and, I would argue, a much less profound but none the less negative effect on society.
“…among which are now out-sized breasts on otherwise fat-free frames and sharply chiseled abdominal muscles, a look that was literally freakish until the dawn of Nautilus and personal trainers…”
The look (for each gender) was uncommon. It wasnt freakish, and it has to some degree or another, always been part of each genders beauty archetype. The point of which is to say that the difficulty of achieving the aesthetic ideal does not somehow make it reasonable to be obese.
“Behind this popular form of bigotry is a consensus that the overweight are lazy, self-indulgent gluttons, which is usually untrue, especially the lazy part.”
The counter assertions are pure speculation. What more is that the counter assertions are very likely wrong. Lazy is context dependent, but at the very least, an obese person has shown an unhealthy disregard for physical activity which can certainly be seen as a form of laziness. In the most literal sense, there is no way to become obese other than by consuming more calories than your body needs and doing so for a relatively extended period of time. So self-indulgent gluttony? Maybe not. But certainly in the same ballpark.
“Fat people are not worthy of respect”
Nope. This is an exaggeration of an otherwise reasonable argument. Fat people are less worthy of respect – in the same sense that anyone who makes clearly negative personal decisions is less worthy of respect. Blew your mortgage in the casino? Less respect. Drive irresponsibly fast on the highway? Less respect. Abuse drugs until your body whithers? Less respect. Abuse food until your body looks ready to pop? Less respect.
Social shame is, and always has been, one of society’s primary means of enforcing conformity. And with regards to fat shaming, it may be unpleasant and it may hurt some feelings, but its a vital social mechanism by which we incentivize obese individuals to live healthier lives and simultaneously discourage others from getting there in the first place.
No, it’s just shaming. He doesn’t know how much she eats or exercises or if she’s tried 47 diets that weren’t effective. Watch closely overweight people in places like dorms where extra plates or lack show that for some they eat less than the thinner cohorts. Shaming can’t do a thing for different builds and metabolisms, and doesn’t actually help them. Smugly and nastily superior critics aren’t teaching or encouraging change in movie reviews, they are denying worth.
“He doesn’t know how much she eats or exercises or if she’s tried 47 diets that weren’t effective.”
Irrelevant. You dont need to know someones eating or exercise habits to see that they are obese, nor does failing a diet mitigate the weight they carry.
“Shaming can’t do a thing for different builds and metabolisms, and doesn’t actually help them.”
The first clause is true the second is not. Shaming doesnt change someone’s metabolism but it does incentivize them. And to expand my original argument a bit: the difficulty of eating fewer calories than you burn does not somehow make it reasonable to be obese.
“Smugly and nastily superior critics aren’t teaching or encouraging change in movie reviews, they are denying worth.”
Ive already agreed that deriding talent based on fat is wrong. The argument was about the ethics of fat shaming not critics thinking fat-actors-are-bad-actors.
My father worked a job where he walked for 12 hours/day with only a 30 min break for food or rest. He was overweight. The only time in his life he wasn’t overweight is when he played basketball for 2 hours/day after work and ate 1 can of Campbell’s tomato soup/day (literally). The problem with the latter (considered healthy) lifestyle is you get sick and feel awful. He is now almost 70 and has had no significant health problems and is overweight. His cholesterol, blood sugar, and arteries are fine.
Your comments about fat people being lazy and eating too much are as ignorant and bigoted as someone saying black people are unemployed because they are all lazy and stupid.
“Social shame is, and always has been, one of society’s primary means of enforcing conformity. And with regards to fat shaming, it may be unpleasant and it may hurt some feelings, but its a vital social mechanism by which we incentivize obese individuals to live healthier lives and simultaneously discourage others from getting there in the first place.”
But being overweight does not make one unproductive or necessarily unhealthy. I am overweight and I have only missed 1 day of work due to illness in 15 years. My workload is 60-100% that of my thinner colleagues, which is one reason I don’t get as much exercise as I should.
I do have a question? Do you shame pregnant teenage girls? Do you shame homeless people? Do you shame people who are gay? If not, why? Your statement above only makes sense if you feel it is appropriate to shame all behavior that is not conforming to social norms, all behavior that is detrimental to society.
“Your comments about fat people being lazy and eating too much are as ignorant and bigoted as someone saying black people are unemployed because they are all lazy and stupid.”
“But being overweight does not make one unproductive or necessarily unhealthy. I am overweight and I have only missed 1 day of work due to illness in 15 years. My workload is 60-100% that of my thinner colleagues, which is one reason I don’t get as much exercise as I should.”
Your individual exceptions do not disprove the rule. The argument, like most argument centering around demographics, is one based on general trends over time.
“I do have a question? Do you shame pregnant teenage girls? Do you shame homeless people? Do you shame people who are gay? If not, why? Your statement above only makes sense if you feel it is appropriate to shame all behavior that is not conforming to social norms, all behavior that is detrimental to society.”
Jack more or less covered pregnant teens in https://ethicsalarms.com/2010/01/26/our-cultures-teen-pregnancy-ethical-conflict/ . Would I be okay with shaming homeless people? It’s a long explanation (i just wrote and deleted a couple of paragraphs) but the short answer is “No” but not for the reasons you think. Gay people? Thats an obvious “No” for such obvious reasons that Im surprised you even put it forward. My statement above makes sense without the all that you added. Some behaviors should be shamed and some shouldn’t; this is a frequent subject of discussion on this blog.
So your argument is based on general trends over time. And yet, you are supporting the mockery of INDIVIDUALS, even while admitting that they may or may not need the little moral lesson that you’re purporting to teach. Ah, who cares, a lot of those fat folks have health problems, so I may as well give this one some shit right? I’m sure she doesn’t know she’s such a fat fatty, maybe if I call her a hippo she’ll realize it.
The first clause is true the second is not. Shaming doesnt change someone’s metabolism but it does incentivize them. And to expand my original argument a bit: the difficulty of eating fewer calories than you burn does not somehow make it reasonable to be obese.\
************
But who’s business is it if you are fat?
Is it my business?
Someone who is not related to you, caring for you or footing your health care bills, is it in my place to be offended or concerned with your fat status?
Do you see how ridiculous and totally Nazi-ish it is to say that you have a right to be incentivizing random fat people with your shame?
It’s not your business!
This is one of those days where I feel like putting a Canada magnet on my car.
First of all, if you think anyone would choose to be fat you’re crazy. Sure, poor impulse control and a lack of self-discipline contribute, but it’s not as simple as “Boy, I’d like to be made fun of and have trouble buying clothes!”
Second, your post is a prime example (along with the Critic’s defense) of a rationalization I just hate- that fat people should be shamed so they get healthier. Yes, there’s all kinds of weight related health problems associated with being fat, but that does not mean that every fat person is an unhealthy drain on the system.
By the BMI scale I am well into the obese category, and yet my significant medical history runs like this: pulled hamstring from weight lifting, broken fingers from football, sprained knee from football, concussion from football, concussion from camping accident, numerous burns and lacerations from camping and boy scouts, severe poison ivy cases from camping and hiking and trail running, sprained shoulder from falling while trail running. I live a healthy and active lifestyle, and to fight the genetic factors in my weight I’d end up calorie-obsessed, ravenous, and miserable. Please do not presume to judge my health based on my outward appearance.
I am very large but my blood pressure is always great. And not just great for a man my size. The idea that fat = unhealthy is not a truism and more people should understand that.
I once had a doctor order blood tests due to her concern that I likely had high cholesterol and diabetes because of my weight. When the tests came back clean (well, slightly low GOOD cholesterol), she wanted me to go pay to get the same tests done again because “You’re just too overweight, I KNOW you are diabetic or pre-diabetic, you can’t be healthy.” I found a new doctor, thanks bunches.
Yeah, I have had several nurses take my blood pressure and do a double take. I typically then affirm that this is often a normal response I get so they typically never tried to take the blood pressure again. I would definitely find a new doctor if he insisted that I retake bloodwork.
First of all, if you think anyone would choose to be fat you’re crazy. Sure, poor impulse control and a lack of self-discipline contribute, but it’s not as simple as ‘Boy, I’d like to be made fun of and have trouble buying clothes!’
Are you seriously contending that a person is not responsible for the food they put in their mouths and the physical activity they don’t do? *Mind blown*
“Yes, there’s all kinds of weight related health problems associated with being fat, but that does not mean that every fat person is an unhealthy drain on the system.”
And, to a large extent, the last paragraph.
Agreed, but the argument, like most argument centering around demographics, is one based on general trends over time. There may be individual exceptions but they don’t make the larger argument untrue.
I’m contending that not for every fat person is becoming and remaining fat optional. There are those who face physical limitations and genetic/glandular disorders who simply cannot lose the weight or avoid putting it on. Certainly this is not true for all or even most, but you are claming that it is right to shame individuals. When a doctor says “many overweight people have high cholesterol, so you should get this blood test,” it is a sound judgement based on demographic information. When a movie critic says “You’re a hippo!” and then tries to hide behind the shield of “I was worried about your health, and figured maybe you didn’t realize you were fat yet, or that people judged you for it” it’s just being nasty because you can.
What right do you have to judge someone to have made a moral failure because they look the same as someone who made that failure, and mock and shame them as such? What allows you, in good conscience, to shame the fat woman with Cushings Syndrome because you assume she just probably doesn’t jog enough? To shame the fat man that you figure fits the demographic that drains on medical resources, not knowing that he is regularly given a clean bill of health and lives an active life?
“The fundamental difference is that unlike skin color, sexual orientation, or disability, obesity is a choice. And unlike some of the other traits it has an unarguably profound negative effect on the individual and, I would argue, a much less profound but none the less negative effect on society.” Actually, there are many who would make precisely the same argument about sexual orientation. Some people do grow obese due to poor choices. Others are bound to it. If it’s choice or not, it’s a damnably difficult one to undo once it has happened.
“The look (for each gender) was uncommon. It wasnt freakish, and it has to some degree or another, always been part of each genders beauty archetype. The point of which is to say that the difficulty of achieving the aesthetic ideal does not somehow make it reasonable to be obese.”
Actually, it’s a very recent ideal. The majority of cultures has prised weight and fat. men would stuff straw in thier shirts so as to appear fatter, suits have been tradionally cut to magnify the size of the person wearing them, the indian culture has always prized that bit of fat around the waist, and in most non-western countries today, a larger woman is still the more appealing catch. Women’s wear has almost universally accented the hips and waist, even asstomachs were cinched in to obsscene proportions. In short: Nope.
I’m gonna steal that (I presume) accidental term, “asstomachs.”
I do strive to be ethical, but sometimes I can’t help being “obsscene.”
I won’t even dare relate that term to Rex Reed. (oops!)
You’re welcome to it – it does paint quite a vivd picture, doesn’t it? ‘as stomachs’, yes 🙂
“Actually, it’s a very recent ideal. The majority of cultures has prised weight and fat. men would stuff straw in thier shirts so as to appear fatter, suits have been tradionally cut to magnify the size of the person wearing them, the indian culture has always prized that bit of fat around the waist, and in most non-western countries today, a larger woman is still the more appealing catch. Women’s wear has almost universally accented the hips and waist, even asstomachs were cinched in to obsscene proportions. In short: Nope.”
To borrow your phrase: “Nope”. Your twisting a lot here. Some cultures found fat to be desirable as a status symbol but they are few and far between, and even in those cultures they weren’t regarded as the aesthetic ideal. Suits are cut to manipulate the appearance of size, which is different from manipulating the appearance of fat. To be specific they are generally cut to enhance the perceived width of the shoulders and the perceived narrowness of the waist. And that last counter… I hope you realize how large and unsupported it is.
I challenge you to explain to anyone in the middle east how appreciating fat is only a status symbol, and has nothing to do with aesthetic ideals. I’ve experienced walking down the street with a woman who America would currently consider obese who regularly recieved choruses of wolf whistles and catcalls walking the streets of Ankara, Turkey. Even here in America, it’s widely recognized that the physical ideal has shifted radically in recent years – look at the pinups and stag magazines of the 30’s and 40’s. In my lifetime, the ideal has begun the bounce back from the boyish, waifishly thin skeletons of the 90’s to more feminie curves – although hardly realistic ones yet – of today.
England, France, Spain, Multiple middle eastern, jewish, and african cultures, India, Germany, Norway, South American, Roman, heck, the norwegan ideal still holds true in many parts of the midwest and canada. Every one of those cultures has had great spans of thier history wherewhat is currently considered obesity was the aesthetic ideal. For men, it was associated with power and prosperity, for women, it was associated withchaildbearing and maternal prowess. I really do hate to do this, but you’re simply wrong, and any assertaion that there has been ANY common thread in what ” has to some degree or another, always been part of each genders beauty archetype” – much less that the current balloon-breasted, chiseled buns of steel is in any way that common thread across time and culture is laughably absurd on its face.
Jeremy, it is incorrect to say that obesity is “a choice” “unlike homosexuality.” At that point, you diverge from reality.
There is NO MORE of a known generic propensity towards homosexuality than there is towards obesity. None. Both have a known genetic component, but neither are inherited traits in the way that skin color is.
Obese people, I assume, don’t choose to be obese, but have temptations and feelings and desires that they can either resist (with great difficulty and frequent failure) or celebrate. Exactly the same as homosexuality, though I can see why certain people would balk at the comparison.
Homosexual behavior carries unique health risks, in addition to harmful cultural factors (higher rates of domestic abuse and suicide, generally higher frequency of sexual partners, etc.) Obesity must be even worse, since there is no “it gets better” campaign, no day of silence in schools to protest fat-kid bullying, no celebrated fat culture with lobbyists and filmmakers in their corner.
A compassionate person who feels for the plight of one must be equally compassionate towards the other. There is little ro no difference in the “it’s a choice” category.
I think you might have confused yourself.
Obesity is a result of actions, not of the mind’s pre-disposed impulses. Even if your mind scream for chocolate covered cheese cake doughnuts you wont be obese if you dont eat said doughnuts.
Homosexuality is the exact opposite. Even if all you ever do is sleep with women while your mind screams for men, you’re still homosexual.
You are responsible for your actions, not your desires. “Are you seriously contending that a person is not responsible for the food they put in their mouths and the physical activity they don’t do? ” Or are you seriously contending that a man with same-sex sexual preferences is not gay if he only ever sleeps with women? Don’t be absurd.
Obesity is a choice, homosexuality is not.
Obesity is not always a choice. Sometimes people have health conditions that make losing and keeping off weight difficult.
Other times you have people who were not raised to have a healthy relationship with food and those cycles are very hard to break (speaking from experience I know, it is not just as simple as putting down the soft drink and walking away).
I know I drink too many soft drinks. This is why I am teaching my child to not drink them.
Shaming should never be viewed as an acceptable way of reforming individual behavior that effects no body else. That we have done it for a while is not proof that it is a good way to do things. And that we have done it for a while and we still have fat people is proof that it doesn’t work.
Obesity can be a choice–but often it is no more of a choice than alcoholism. Endomorphs are born to be “fat” by anyone’s standards—look at Tigers first baseman Prince Fielder, and Google his Dad, Cecil. Do you really think he will ever be anything but fat by typical standards? What chance did he have? Obesity can be the bi-product of poverty or poor nutrition. If it is a choice, it can be a completely valid choice. There may be better and more altruistic ways to spend one’s time than jogging or working out. Judging and criticizing people who are otherwise productive based on what you consider an acceptable body type is indefensible. The argument that society has to pay for their illnesses is bogus—society has no business telling anyone what to eat or how much to exercise, and to the extent that it makes itself responsible for the results of our personal choices, that’s part of what’s wrong with such policies.
Since you bring up alcoholism, there’s a distinction I want to make as well- the use of the word “shaming.” If we have an intervention for drunk uncle Charlie and talk about how he looks and acts when he drinks, how we worry for him, he may be ashamed of his actions. In that case, shame can be a positive motivator, driven by the realization that you are lettind yourself and the people you care about down. Likewise, if a loved one is dangerously obese, a frank talk about it may leave them feeling badly about themselves- but hopefully in a way that will encourage them to work toward better health. The “shaming” that Jeremy is supporting won’t bring about any positive sense of change, because there’s no real motivation to work for some random stranger flinging drive-by insults.
Obesity as a choice is nothing like alcoholism. There is no addictive mechanism in food whereas there is a clear and obvious addictive mechanism in alcohol.
“…individual exceptions do not disprove the rule.” Including Prince Fielder.
Obesity is a by product of poor choices not poverty. I’ve had food stamps. They don’t work at McDonald’s but they do work in your grocer’s fruit & veggie isle.
Judging and criticizing people who are otherwise productive based on making objectively poor decisions – like gambling, speeding, drug use, and eating to the point of obesity -is entirely defensible. The fact that they are productive does not somehow make the decision less poor.
“The argument that society has to pay for their illnesses is bogus…”
The argument is debatable but not bogus. And in the very near future of Obama-care it could go from “arguably..less profound but none the less negative” to “unarguably expensive and detrimental.”
“…society has no business telling anyone what to eat or how much to exercise, and to the extent that it makes itself responsible for the results of our personal choices, that’s part of what’s wrong with such policies.”
Social shaming isnt formal policy, it’s a relief mechanism for it. Social shaming covers the grey area of behaviors that can’t or shouldn’t be made formally illegal but that are none the less destructive to the individual or society. For example, society clearly has no business mandating how much a person can drink (how ridiculous is the idea of a three beer maximum at every bar) but its also clearly reasonable to shame those individuals that abuse that freedom.
Jeremy, I hate to break it to you, but as you say that the world is a better place by public shame, you are a world-class, grade-A bigot.
Your every argument has ignored nearly every scientific reality of obesity. It has been routinely linked to genetics, upraising, the nutritional quality of food, the economic reality of nutritious food being farmore expensive than fat-laden cheap simple salves. Food has been found to stimulate the centers of the brain associated with addiction and the release of endorphins. There is a strong, but imperfect correlation between obesity and many health diseases, although no empircal connection exists. Your simple rule that “Fat=lazy, gluttonous, and unhealthy” you maintain despite multiple examples of the precise opposite. “Well, ok, THIS black person doesn’t like watermelon, but that doesn’t change the rule that all black people like watermelon.”
Furthermore, you’re obviously completely ignorant of world culture and history, and you bring shame upon yourself by daring to discuss such matters with educated folk.
We get it. You hate fat people. You have no respect, sympathy, or tolerance for them. Everyone should eat healthy, exercise, and do lipo if they have to. People who allow themselve to be fat are somehow less desirable than those who havedone otherwise. Wall-E presented the most horrible example of humanity you could imagine in your most fever-fueled nightmares.I’m frankly glad I’ve got a few extra pounds under my belt so that I needn’t try and find a reason to excuse myself from your company, as you have already provided one. You are a bigot, prejudiced, and ignorant, to boot. I would add a fool, but that is simply a matter of personal opinion.
I wish you all success and fortune, and may your metabolism never slack. Good day.
My argument accepts scientific reality. It does not accept a dodge of accountability. All the factors you listed make it more difficult to stay healthy or more likely that you will be obese. They do not themselves cause obesity. Only poor choices can do that.
Food is not addictive like alcohol. Any attempt to argue otherwise is foolishness. Best case scenario is that it might be a behavioral addiction affecting a small percentage of the population, but even then it’s not currently recognized by any of the standard medical associations.
“Fat=lazy, gluttonous, and unhealthy” is a deliberate misrepresentation (by oversimplification and exaggeration) of a reasonably qualified statement.
“‘Well, ok, THIS black person doesn’t like watermelon, but that doesn’t change the rule that all black people like watermelon.'”
…Im not 100% percent sure what this was meant to counter but at the very least it shows an attempt at an inappropriate argument. If you cant make your point without hitching it to the emotional rejection of racism in America then it’s probably not as good a point as you thought.
“Furthermore, you’re obviously completely ignorant of world culture and history, and you bring shame upon yourself by daring to discuss such matters with educated folk.”
If it’s so obvious, you shouldn’t have a hard time proving it. And yet…
As it stands though, your response is rife with argumentative mal practice, adhominid attacks, and general incivility. A properly simplified version of my argument goes like this:
1) Obesity is a choice.
2) Obesity is a self destructive choice (in the sense that it is powerfully tied with significantly negative health effects).
2.1) It can also be argued that society bears a small or large burden for the choices of the obese.
3) Shame is a powerful socially regulatory emotion, that is used by society to curb behavior that cannot or should not be made illegal but is none the less destructive to the individual or society.
4) The application of social shame has been and is currently used to create negative perceptions of people who make poor personal choices – in an effort to prevent others from doing the same. Some of which include smoking, drinking, and recreational drug use (I’ve listed a few other as well but this sums the point nicely). This blog itself touched on the issue with pregnant teen mothers.
5) If it is okay to shame people for other destructive choices then obesity, as a destructive choice, is reasonable grounds for social shame.
There are several spin off arguments for sure, but this is the core.
The first point is largely unassailable. Unless you are incapable of making mentally sound decisions or are being force by another party, you bear personal responsibility for your weight. The second is also very strong, though there are rare exceptions where a person with good genetics can be obese and not experience the negative short or long term effect associated with obesity. These are uncommon and even the exceptions Ive conceded above are done more out of argumentative consideration than any real likelihood. Additionally, in the future science may disprove the second point but, currently, the overwhelming body of evidence and standing medical convention support it. Two sub-one, is an ongoing debate. The third is a well established principle in psychopathology and in other social and psychological disciplines. The fourth, as an observation, is technically the weakest; though I doubt anyone would seriously contend that society has not attempted in some form or another to reasonably shame on these grounds. The fifth is a straight forward application of categorical Aristotelian logic. If you want to argue, start with these.
Or, in short: less vitriol, more civility, more reason.
A note to other commentators: If I haven’t responded to you personally, Im sorry. There are a lot of responses, a lot of the response are fundamentally similar in nature, and I’m sandwiched between the intellectually enjoyable ethical debate and the less enjoyable but far more pressing combination of Materials Science and Calc III. So hopefully this response at least partially covers some of the ground that individualized responses would have.
You can’t just keep saying that point 1 is unassailable, you know. Multiple commentators have pointed out a host of reasons that people have little to no personal control over their weight. As for point 2, you are casually hand-waving aside exceptions as rare.
Here’s the rub. When you endorse shaming as an appropriate action, carte blanche, you are saying that you don’t care if you’re making fun of a perfectly healthy person, or a person with a disease that is the cause rather than effect of their weight. You have judged and found them guilty of destructive behavior, and are willing to make their lives less pleasant as the penalty for that judgement, without any good data.
That’s the benefit of the doubt, by the way, as the other option I’m seeing is that you’re a jerk who thinks fatties are icky, but you can feel self-righteous with a kludged together argument about how making fun of them makes them want to change, or helps society not pay for them, or something.
Actually, you are also addicted to food. We all are. If we do not satisfy that addiction, we die. The other things that people get addicted to that threaten their health and lives might be treated and removed from the addicts’ lives and thereby enrich those lives. However you can not give up food.
Shaming helps some ills that are under our conscious and complete control. Fixing psychological issues costs. Buying healthy food costs more than ramen. Medical cures cost. Membership in gyms and training costs. Willpower can’t provide those costs. If you find a magic spell that fixes all that feel free to share, since shaming isn’t helping.
Question, when you say “shaming”, what exactly do you mean by that anyways? Are you saying that it’s ok to walk up to random obese people and tell them that they’re “fucking losers who should be ashamed of themselves?” Or for newspapers to make gratuitous insults about Chris Christie’s waistline? Or are you meaning something else entirely, because Jack was talking more about the former(s).
Also, the comparision to drug usage and gambling seems to be a bit off; fat people at least seem to be around the average with regards to caring and providing for their family and friends, which you can’t quite say for people who spend all their paycheck on heroin or the slots.
Im glad you brought it up, its something we haven’t covered yet. The answer probably isnt satisfactory though. There are a lot of ways to shame someone, some of them are ethical some of them are not. Its kinda of a Stewart qualification: you’ll know the unethical ones when you see them.
And with regards to the comparison to gambling or drinking, they were largely meant as allegories for personally destructive decisions. The examples you highlighted were of the social consequences of the same. I havent really settled on how I feel about the social consequences of obesity, though I imagine the personal negative health effects of obesity would take a toll on any family.
“Obesity as a choice is nothing like alcoholism. There is no addictive mechanism in food whereas there is a clear and obvious addictive mechanism in alcohol. ”
I wonder if you could be more wrong.
Four words: High Fructose Corn Syrup
“Shadowing the same receptor pathways of other ingested addictive chemicals, including cocaine and opiates, high fructose corn syrup alters the transmission of certain brain chemicals, including endorphins, dopamine and serotonin, which, in turn, trigger the pleasure center of our brains, leaving us wanting more. Consumption of HFCS has increased more than 1,000 percent since 1970.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rebecca-cooper-ma-mft-cch-ceds/sugar-addiction_b_2058308.html (there are links to studies in the story, just in case people get their panties in a bunch over a huff post source)
“Judging and criticizing people who are otherwise productive based on making objectively poor decisions – like gambling, speeding, drug use, and eating to the point of obesity -is entirely defensible. The fact that they are productive does not somehow make the decision less poor. ”
Unless it is a learned mechanism on how to deal with depression. Then you just intensify the problem.
Jack, you forgot about Clinton! Everyone ganged up on him about his weight and his love for McD’s. I think even SNL did a skit on that. I don’t care about anyone’s weight except my loved ones and my elected leaders. Obviously someone can be brilliant and overweight – eating for many is a successful de-stressing mechanism. But we do need to inquire about the health of our leaders, especially our executive leaders. If you are overweight and in good health, I don’t care. If you are overweight and have high blood pressure, cholesterol or something even more serious like diabetes, I think the public has the right to know. Just like I would have the right to know if a candidate was suffering from cancer.
When I run for office, I will make sure people know I am fat. 😉
There is a difference between a comedian making fat jokes and someone seriously tryinig to say that someone being overweight makes the person a bad candidate.
“By all means, let’s not horrify readers by showing them McCarthy’s actual body—they might vomit or pass out.”
Hang-ups, no? (referring back to your most recent naked teacher post)
I didn’t say that I would vomit or pass out.
I know, but you seemed to refer sarcastically to (and with some disagreeableness with) others’ being horrified by having the chance to see McCarthy’s body as hers is. So do we agree that not all hang-ups are necessary or constructive, or ethical?
In any case, I am fatter than you (I won’t explain how I know that) – I win.
*hang-ups* about body-appearance, I mean.
But I didn’t, E, and I would think it would have been obvious. Since I was speaking for “Elle,” that was obviously hyperbole and sarcasm suggesting the attitude that the designers of the cover photo must have had to pose her that way. “By all means, let’s not horrify readers by showing them McCarthy’s actual body—they might vomit or pass out” was the sentence,…and “by all means” is commonly used to signal irony or sarcasm. The idea that seeing the curves of McCarthy’s real form would horrify a nation that watches her every week on TV (and that, in many cases, has about the same contours) is manifestly ridiculous, as are the extreme reactions–vomiting and fainting— I attached to that. Why would you ever read this to reflect MY attitude, especially in light of the post itself?
I said, “I know.” I absolutely did not read what you said and conclude that it is your attitude. I did notice your sarcasm. Your sarcasm very clearly indicated to me your awareness of others’ hang-ups, not an admission of any of your hang-ups. I am not sure how to convey to you any more clearly that I understand what you mean. You seem convinced that I am accusing you of something. Not in anything I have said here have I meant to accuse of you of anything – except maybe of not being as fat as I am. People have hang-ups about nudity; people have hang-ups about body dimensions. At least some of those hang-ups derive from what I mentioned in my comment about the naked teacher: bigotry. That squares with what you have said in this thread. Right?
Right.
I doubt that the cultural rejection of gratuitous fat-bashing and weight-based bigotry is coming any time soon.
************
Exactly the reason why bullying in the schools is going to keep getting worse.
It’s becoming culturally acceptable to bash people’s physical characteristics and attack them on the deepest personal levels.
If Reed didn’t like the movie all he needed to say was it sucked and she wasn’t funny.
Exactly! Charles Laughton was fat, and possibly the greatest actor of his era. Orson Welles was fat. Geraldine page was fat. Kathy Bates is fat. Oliver Hardy. John Belushi. Lou Costello. Jackie Gleason. So what? Their weight is unrelated to their talent and performances and we generally need fat actors because there are fat characters.
You mentioned John Belushi. Now I’m obsessing, and blaming you.
I can’t look at that guy who does the Ageless Male (testosterone supplement) commercial without thinking, “Belushi.” He looks like a Belushi. (Is he?)
http://www.ispot.tv/ad/77kP/ageless-male-over-40
I’m almost disappointed the guy hasn’t been picked to do a Saturday Night Live skit in honor of John – something like “Samurai Virility-Seller.” But I digress…
I just get angry when I think about JB—such a brilliant talent, to die so stupidly and pointlessly, so young. My intense objection to recreational drugs of all kinds was greatly intensified by his fate.
Exactly! Charles Laughton was fat, and possibly the greatest actor of his era. Orson Welles was fat. Geraldine page was fat. Kathy Bates is fat. Oliver Hardy. John Belushi. Lou Costello. Jackie Gleason. So what? Their weight is unrelated to their talent and performances and we generally need fat actors because there are fat characters.
***************
I’m also getting sick of the excuses being made for the fat bashing once the speaker/writer gets called on it.
“Oh, I was simply concerned about their health”.
BS!
They are no more concerned about their victims’ health then they are concerned about anything other than themselves and their bloated egos.
(Hey, look at me, I made a cheap shot about someone’s weight, aren’t I cool, edgy and urban?)
Even someone who is supposed to be a professional journalist made a public smart remark about Chris Christie and doughnuts.
We’ve become a nation of vulgarians with absolutely no class.
One step closer to being the laughing stock of the world.
“…nation of vulgarians…” – ouch.
Well, it looks like this socially retarded critic has a history of making mean-spirited comments.
Pretty funny considering what he looks like.
Maybe he thinks he can keep himself relevant that way.
What a sad spectacle.
…is nobody going to point out that Identity Thief ISN’T her latest comedy? She was also in the Sandra Bullock buddy cop movie The Heat. And she had a cameo in Hangover III, but she probably leaves that off the ol’ resume.
There is no need to go after her weight as a means of criticizing Identity Thief. That movie is absolutely appalling and agonizing all by itself. Her weight or appearance is a complete non-issue. If it was Kristen Bell doing the same thing, I still would have hated that movie. It’s the closest I’ve come to walking out of a movie in YEARS. Mind, The Heat wasn’t good, either, but it’s loads better than Identity Thief.
Melissa McCarthy is a legitimately talented performer, but the movie puts her to use in the wrong direction. If Rex had focused on how her career trajectory seems to aimed ONLY at being obnoxious, that’s a more legitimate (and still probably wrong) avenue of criticism. But that would require Rex Reed to not be a tool.
Righteo.
And her Academy Award nominated character in “Bridesmaids” was NOT obnoxious, but probably the most admirable and likeable character in the movie, thanks to her nuanced performance.
Never actually saw Bridesmaids. I heard about some of the gross-out stuff, and… I don’t like a lot of R-rated comedies.
Agreed.
Comedy died when the reign of Leslie Nielson style deadpan and slapstick gave way to utterly vapid Will Ferrell style comedy.
I think she got the Oscar because she was the only funny actress in the movie. It’s awful.
I’ll never bother to see the movie even if it comes to the cheapo theatre in my home town. Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 20%. I’d rather see another Adam Sandler movie. Not a good career move Melissa!
I’m in no condition to offer a solid exposé response to Jeremy Wiggins,
So the short of it:
Appalling response.
What is missing: sometimes fat people are fat because they’ve prioritized more important things for themselves. Who gives a damn? It’s their life you arrogant ass. Who says your narcissist standards are appropriate? Sorry, we’ve given narcissism about 50 years to reign, and we’ve got a horribly broken, victimized and ‘entitled’ people to show for it.
Here’s a better standard: live and let live and leave the fuck alone.
Who gives a damn that you think fat people are a detriment to tbemselves or society? Only people who think they know what’s best for everyone. What a joke. That’s why our society is gripped in this health care chaos. Leave people alone and let them decide whats best for them. Oh, and RESPECT their decisions! Why? It’s their choice that’s why and it doesn’t affect you, you useless busy body.
I’ll compose something better in a day or two. Screw people who want to make decisions and standards for others. What leftist assholes.
Here’s an idea:
Are they being decent and respecting the rights and privacy of those around them? Are they behaving in a civil and civically beneficial manner?
Yes? Leave the people the hell alone then, ass.
Tex, were you channeling our Sir Ablative Meatshield above?
I was extremely tired and frustrated and my inhibitions that theretofore maintained patience with leftist social engineering busybodies were down.
I’m tired of their crap.
Illegitimi non carborundum.
(Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur.)
TLDR but I’ll bet Jeremy is a closet fatty.
(That’s the way homosexuals talk about people who try to shame them.) I’ll bet I just broke several ethics rules here, but OH WELL — JEREMY!
Maybe I did too.
Jack,
This report will make you fly off the handle.
Woman to not give candy to “obese” kids, but a letter identifying their obesity instead
Me? Fly off the handle? Pshaw.
I had to engage in some hyperbole to catch your attention.